Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-359)
18 SEPTEMBER 2003
COUNCILLOR ANGIE
ROBINSON AND
MS HILARY
MARTIN
Q340 Chris Mole: Okay. In your memorandum
you particularly address the idea that cohesive community means
more than good race relations, can you build on that statement?
Ms Martin: I think the approach
that we have taken in Rochdale is that it is about all sorts of
things and it is about very fundamental things, like trying to
tackle fairly small problems which can cause tension within a
community which may manifest itself as tension between old people
and young people or people from different racial backgrounds,
for example if there are things like fly-tipping going on and
it is not dealt with, just small things like that. It is important
to try and deal with a lot of those very small local issues as
well as the more strategic ones, but obviously you have to do
both.
Q341 Chris Mole: If I ask why are
some areas more cohesive than others the $64,000 question is,
why has Rochdale not suffered much of the inter-racial tensions
that have been seen in other parts of the North West?
Cllr Robinson: That is a question
that has exercised the minds of a lot of us and I wish could give
you a definitive answer. I think it is very much about a lot of
the things that have been built up over the years in Rochdale:
the links with voluntary sectors within a diverse range of communities;
devolution of decision-making down to township level, where it
is not just the actual decision-making but there are considerable
devolved budgets as well which actually give strength to any local
decision-making. For example round 95 per cent of planning applications
are actually decided on a local level. We have worked very hard
as a local authority taking our role of civic leadership forward
but also on an individual level by councillors and community leadership
in bringing together groups within the varying township areas.
If I can just comment on the township structure, it is not one-size-fits-all
across the borough, although each does have a township committee
and from that the subgroups, working parties, etc very much come
from local communities as regards areas of interest. For example
in the township I am a member of we have a cultural working party
whereas in another township they do not have. The townships are
not all controlled by the ruling group who control the Council,
so they are not a one-party state, and people see the people they
are voting for are representing them and working with them on
a local level. I think we have worked hard and developed partnerships
and we very much deliver things through partnerships. For example
the partner delivering the Neighbourhood Renewal Fund is actually
the Federation for Tenants and Residents for our borough not the
Council itself. The township structure we have is now nearly ten
years old and over that time it has organically developed into
what people want, it also provides a forum where local people
can come along and if there is an issue that gets under their
skin it not only gives them a chance to address directly what
some people see as a faceless bureaucracy of local government
but it is also a forum for them to let off some of the steam rather
than letting it build up.
Q342 Chairman: Some of them can be
pretty boring if they come to the township meeting and go on about
the same things month after month.
Cllr Robinson: The thing is that
does not often tend to happen because|
Q343 Chairman: Tell me how they do
it?
Cllr Robinson: I am just coming
to that, the way that it works is there is an open forum at the
beginning, the agenda will be half an hour but that is not strictly
true because it continues until people have all had an opportunity,
issues are raised. It is not just a case of it is somewhere that
you say something and nothing happens, it is then taken up and
there is either further reports back or there is action or it
is a starting point for a piece of work within a community. It
is not always the same people that come, quite interestingly (yes,
there are one or two regulars) there are a number of other people
who come on specific issues and see it as a way of progressing.
Of course we also have other forums for input within neighbourhood
structures as well, through other groups, such as the Federation
for Tenants and Residents and area-type committees that allow
this. I keep coming back to partnerships and I think we have very
clear communications with a diverse range of representatives and
people within the communities, it is not Utopia but when tensions
do start to arise there are lines of communication, there are
people and organisations who do speak together to work on that
and who also perhaps share intelligence to work towards preventing
something major happening.
Q344 Chris Mole: If you look at the
range of initiatives that Government use to aim to improve community
cohesion they talk about mainstreaming community cohesion, what
you seem to be saying is that the way you approach governance
of the localities of Rochdale promotes community cohesion but
you do not specifically talk about it in that way, you do not
go out and say, "today we are promoting community cohesion"
or "we are having a community cohesion hour"?
Ms Martin: I think if you mention
community cohesion to most people in the community they give you
a complete blank stare. Yes, I think part of our success, as Councillor
Robinson says, is about an approach that has grown up over many,
many years and that things like partnership working were very
well established long before we had to set up an LSP, for example.
In terms of mainstreaming we are now making more conscious efforts
to mainstream community cohesion issues, if you like, into the
activities of both the Council and partnership organisations,
for example we are using things like the Joint Housing Market
Renewal Pathfinder with Oldham Neighbourhood Renewal Strategy
to make sure that those issues are considered and the impact of
policies and actions and their potential impact on community cohesion
is considered. In terms of officers we are shortly embarking on
some diversity training for service managers based round practice
for local government equality standards and we are deliberately
including something in that training to try and help managers
to ensure that community cohesion is considered in the way that
they take their actions. That is not straightforward because there
are certain things in terms of fairness and diversity in relation
to one group which could be seen as positive but if you look at
the impact of that on the borough or the community as a whole
there are potential things to cause tension. I do not think you
can ever say that something is right or wrong in that respect,
people are weighing up the risks in a sense.
Q345 Dr Pugh: We felt that the people
in Oldham at times were careful and guarded in what they said,
not wanting to touch on sensitive issues, could part of the reason
why Rochdale is relatively successful in resolving racial and
other ethnic tension be that the people of Rochdale are blunter,
franker and more explicit about points of conflict?
Cllr Robinson: It is very hard
to compare.
Q346 Chairman: Can you speak up a
little?
Cllr Robinson: It is very hard
to compare because I do not have the experience of the people
in Oldham. I do not know if it is about being blunter.
Q347 Dr Pugh: When there is a more
comfortable relationship people are happier about saying precisely
what is on their mind, are they not?
Cllr Robinson: I think it is about
not being afraid to speak sometimes but also as a local authority
being even-handed and not being afraid to tackle difficult issues.
As I was referring to the township model I do not want you to
get the impression that it is all sorts of lots of little fiefdoms
with no over-arching identity.
Q348 Mr Clelland: You mentioned the
system of working through the local townships, perhaps you would
like to say a bit more about how important that is in terms of
cohesion? In particular how are differences in approach and indeed
in opinion by the townships reconciled at a borough-wide level?
Cllr Robinson: As I was already
starting to say it is not that it is little fiefdoms of their
own, there is quite a lot of commonality of view in relation to
the borough as a whole. To be honest it is not always easy to
reconcile where you do have differing views, as I am sure you
are aware, but there never really does seem to be major disparities
between townships in relation to policies and strategies with
a borough-wide compact, such as housing.
Q349 Chairman: How do you dish out
the money between the different townships?
Ms Martin: It is done proportionately,
there is a township fund. There is a set amount per head of population
and that is then available for the township committee to spend.
Committee groups can apply for funding.
Q350 Chris Mole: How big is the fund
overall?
Cllr Robinson: Each township has
a variable amount. We could get you the figure.
Q351 Chairman: How much goes to the
four in total?
Ms Martin: I could not tell you
but I could get you that figure.
Cllr Robinson: There are a number
of devolved budgets, such as the fund for pavement repairs and
environmental-type works.
Ms Martin: That is a specific
one that is for applications from community groups but there are
other devolved council budgets for specific services. I think
as Councillor Robinson has mentioned something like 90 per cent
of planning applications are decided at a local level.
Q352 Mr Clelland: There will be differences
in the resources that are given to the townships, how do you reconcile
the arguments that are bound to arise if one township is getting
more than another?
Ms Martin: Those arguments carry
on all of the time, I do not think you are ever going to be able
to totally reconcile them. One example is in terms of regeneration
funding we have had several rounds of SRB funding, the first round
went to Central Rochdale, the next time round a conscious decision
was made that the next round went to Middleton township. Then
New Deal for Communities came along and at the time I was an officer
working in Middleton and there was all sorts of very good reasons
to invest that money in Middleton to build on the good work that
had been done under the SRB scheme but a conscious political decision
was made that it was Heywood's turn. Those were all based on need.
Most of the wards in the borough are deprived, the problem that
you get is that one of the townships, Pennines, as a whole tends
to hit very few of the deprivation criteria for anything. We have
tried to address that with the Neighbourhood Renewal Strategy
when identifying very small geographical areas of need and been
able to pick up the pockets of deprivation in the Pennines township,
also by including some "at risk neighbourhoods" as well
as the ones that are the most deprived.
Q353 Chairman: Can I pursue this
question of funding, a lot of your money comes from Central Government
on the basis of need, so Rochdale will get a bit of extra money
on the basis of the disadvantage in some of the inner parts of
Rochdale, places like Langley, and then you dish the money out
on a per capita basis.
Ms Martin: No, that is purely
a fund based on, as you said, a per capita basis. It is one small
fund available for community groups to apply for a grant to do
certain things. It is a small amount of money.
Q354 Chairman: The bigger money that
the Council is spending is something allocated within the townships
on the basis of need as measured. Do you not get the situation
then that people in New Hey feel too much is being spent in Wardle
and vice versa?
Ms Martin: Yes. I think the way
that we try and tackle that is by trying to communicate to people
that it is not the case that all of the money is going into one
area. It is not something that I think we would ever claim we
have an answer to. We do not have the answer to it. We also have
a problem with the townships that is a hangover from government
reorganisation in 1974, people still hark back to things like
urban district councils, "Middleton would rather be with
Manchester" and "Heywood would rather be in Bury"
and "Rochdale gets everything". The township committee
mechanism helps us to bring those things to the surface and deal
with the mix.
Q355 Chairman: How long have the
townships been in existence?
Ms Martin: Nine years.
Q356 Dr Pugh: The problems you described
about inter-community rivalry seem very familiar to us, it is
not news to us, what is news is that the township committees are
the solution to it because in many area committees or township
committees in many parts of the country what you simply get is
people voicing the concerns or grumbles of the community, are
you saying that your secret is that you do not simply have these
committees but perhaps you empower them more than they are in
other places so they cannot simply ventilate the community concerns
but actually resolve them? Is that the difference?
Ms Martin: I think that is the
difference. I also think that township committees are very important
but they are not the only thing.
Q357 Dr Pugh: Have you found that
an easy thing to do?
Cllr Robinson: I think one of
the factors (townships are only one element as to why we feel
things are working for us) is the willingness of elected members
to actually relinquish some of the power that you would normally
have by making decisions probably based on consultation but to
have forums where the public speak freely and alongside a lot
of the consultation and not just political power but council power
is more devolved. As you were saying it is not just an arena to
vent views but it does also have some powers to actually do it.
If I might remark, it is very, very rare, if at all, that full
council will overturn a township decision providing it is obviously
made within the legitimacies of acts that govern local government,
and the over-arching framework of council policy.
Q358 Chairman: Do you mean some of
the townships try to do things that are illegal?
Cllr Robinson: No, no. I am saying
there is obviously check and balance there. As to decisions that
are made on a local level full council would not—and as
I have said there are differences in political control from the
controlling group—use this as a way of vetoing what a township
has decided.
Q359 Dr Pugh: It seems an interesting
model. Can I move on to partnerships, how important are they to
promoting cohesion? Is there some conflict at times between partnerships
that exist and the Council's role in welding all of the various
partnerships together?
Cllr Robinson: Inevitably when
you are dealing with quite a number of different partners at times
there can be differences between the partners that you are partnering
with. As to political direction I do not feel that it presents
great problems. We believe in two-way partnership, if you know
what I mean, rather than being a council who come along to work
with a partner and saying, "this is what we want, this is
what we have to do", we work to common aims and objectives
with our partners. We have built up a degree of trust as well
over the years and it is not always going to the same partners.
If we look back over time we have developed new partnerships.
It is very difficult to describe in words some of the things that
make for good partnerships, and some of it is a trust issue.
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