Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380-399)
18 SEPTEMBER 2003
COUNCILLOR ANGIE
ROBINSON AND
MS HILARY
MARTIN
Q380 Chris Mole: You mentioned the
role of arts and sports, what role do you think they can play
in promoting social cohesion?
Cllr Robinson: They play a very
big role. One of the things that we have recently done is a piece
of consultation with homeless people and homelessness service
users through using community arts and community artists which
gave a voice to a group of hard to reach people. We have done
this kind of initiative with other communities too. Sports very
much play a part. We have partnered with tennis and residents'
federations supporting sports.
Ms Martin: I think sports is a
good means of bringing young people from different backgrounds
together from across the borough and it also helps from an intergenerational
point of view because you are encouraging children to do something
positive rather than hang round on street corners and frighten
elderly people or elderly residents. It is very, very important.
We have a number of projects which not only bring together young
people from different parts of the borough and provide them with
something meaningful to do but there is a capacity-building element
within those projects and the idea is that some of the people
who take part in them will then become sports leaders.
Q381 Chairman: If you look at football
team of youngsters playing on a Saturday morning and you have
screaming fathers on the touchline, if they are screaming fathers
coming from different communities does that not increase tension
rather than reduce it?
Ms Martin: There are all sorts
of issues about football and tension and people's feeling of identity
and rivalries. I would not like to comment on that because I do
not live in Rochdale and I do not know to what extent that happens.
Q382 Dr Pugh: Are the Health Services
in Rochdale any help in promoting good race relations?
Ms Martin: There is a lot of partnership
working between the Council and the PCTs. There were a lot of
projects with that specific aim as part of the HAZ (Health Action
Zone) scheme.
Q383 Dr Pugh: Do they show awareness
of specific needs?
Ms Martin: Yes, a lot of those
projects were focused on the needs of the ethnic minority.
Q384 Chairman: That is the Primary
Care Trusts, what about the acute hospital?
Ms Martin: I think there is a
lot of work going on equally in the acute sector as well but most
of my work is focused round the PCTs.
Q385 Mr Clelland: You have said,
and it is quite reasonable for you to say, it would not be right
for you to comment on other local authorities but of course we
can because that is part of our job here: we know, and I am sure
you know, that in some local authorities there is a great deal
of tension that arises over the competition of area-based regeneration
initiatives and the distribution of resources but you seem, to
a large extent, to have managed to overcome that, is there a lesson
for other local authorities here? Would you say that it is possible
to target funds at the most deprived areas without giving rise
to these tensions and causing these problems?
Cllr Robinson: I do not think
that you will ever do that 100 per cent but you can do it the
best that you are able to balance, and I think we have managed
that. Obviously, as we said, inevitably there is always going
to be, "what about my ward?" you will always get that.
We have managed to meet the needs criteria to a large extent because
of the number of deprived wards in the borough. I do think that
it is possible if the demography and geography are perhaps similar
if you had a couple of wards that had quite severe deprivation
and met certain indices and you had a number of others that did
not you would then get those tensions and it would be much harder
to resolve.
Q386 Mr Clelland: You say to a large
extent you have overcome these problems, what further action do
you need to take?
Cllr Robinson: On?
Q387 Mr Clelland: In pursuing this?
Cllr Robinson: I think it is continuing.
Q388 Mr Clelland: Do you need more
help from the Government? Should the Government be doing more?
Ms Martin: In terms of area-based
initiatives the impression that you get as an officer is that
there is lots of money available but it is separated into different
schemes with slightly different criteria and a lot of effort has
to go into putting in bids and fitting it all together to come
up with something substantial.
Q389 Mr Clelland: Do you think there
are too many area-based initiatives?
Ms Martin: There are possibly
too many separate ones, it would be better if they could be blended
together.
Mr Clelland: Okay.
Q390 Chairman: You have beacon council
status and you are a pathfinder council, does it make any difference?
Ms Martin: The major benefit of
both of them was in encouraging us to focus on the community cohesion
agenda. We felt when we applied for beacon status that what we
were doing was worth while in its own terms, even if we did not
get beacon council status. There are positives and negatives with
both of them, an awful lot of work was attached to the Beacon
Council Scheme and pathfinder has given us money to try more innovative
ways of developing our working relations, but it is a relatively
short-lived project. I wish that the two were more coordinated
because when you have both there is a lot of duplication.
Q391 Chairman: It means two things
on your logo, does it not?
Ms Martin: There is not a pathfinder
logo.
Q392 Chairman: Shame! Can I take
you on to the question of cohesion now, you have expressed considerable
reservation in your paper about the Government's enthusiasm for
measuring it. Is it not a good idea to be able to measure social
cohesion?
Ms Martin: I think it is a good
idea to be able to measure it but I do not think it is easy. I
think that the recent indicators are a useful start because they
combine the qualitative and quantitative data. We are doing a
lot more work as part of pathfinder with Oldham and Bury on trying
to, if you like, develop those indicators and extend them into
something that is more applicable to our area and we may end up
with a slightly different set of indicators for Rochdale than
there are for Oldham because our circumstances are different.
Q393 Chairman: If they are different
are they going to be ones that the Home Office can make comparisons
on across the country as to what is working?
Ms Martin: You have to use some
common ones but then when you look at developing your own baseline|
Q394 Chairman: Are you likely to
have more or less racial incidents as a result of having good
cohesion? Does it mean that people are prepared or happy to report
them in certain circumstances or does it mean that you have got
less of them if cohesion is working?
Ms Martin: In Rochdale we would
say more reported is better because it reflects greater confidence
in the police. That was the point we made in the consultation
on those indicators. We were also told that within Greater Manchester
there is also disparity in the way that police forces record racially
motivated incidents, in that in some forces it is only the more
serious incidents whereas Rochdale reports everything.
Q395 Chairman: It might be useful
to look at the evidence that we got from the Chief Superintendent
of Oldham who set out what Oldham's policy was. When you have
a look, it should be on the website early next week, tell us whether
that is what is happening in Rochdale. If you are a beacon council
does that mean a lot more people go out to vote in the elections?
Ms Martin: No. If we are a beacon
council it does not mean that we have everything right, it means
that|
Q396 Chairman: You are trying to
get it right.
Ms Martin: Yes. I think part of
that is a recognition|
Q397 Chairman: If you have everything
right people would be happy and they would not vote.
Cllr Robinson: There is that way
of looking at it.
Q398 Chairman: If you had postal
votes would that make things much better for turnout?
Cllr Robinson: I think looking
at the pilot studies that have been done it has, as you will be
aware, increased voter turnout. It is something that I feel is
a positive in the community to encourage participation. I think
there are other things that we could try to do as an authority
but the short answer is yes.
Q399 Chairman: You do not think there
is too much scope for abuse with postal votes?
Cllr Robinson: The system under
which they operate has to be very clear. I do think if people
are going to abuse the system then yes there is potential there
but there is potential abuse in voting at a ballot box as well.
| 
