Examination of Witness (Questions 520-539)
3 FEBRUARY 2004
MR FRANK
MAGUIRE
Q520 Mr Cummings: Do you believe that
your model could be applied more widely? Can you envisage a religious
school involving Christians and Muslims? You mentioned that you
do involve your pupils in visits to mosques and temples.
Mr Maguire: Anything is possible,
but you would need to have an absolute desire for that to take
place. You would also need to have total commitment from the people
who were leading those organisations.
Q521 Mr Cummings: Have you tested the
water at all?
Mr Maguire: No, we have not, except
that parents whose children attend our school have a great desire
for a secondary school for my children to transfer to, because
they are so pleased with the way things move there.
Q522 Mr Cummings: Have you received any
approaches from the Muslim community or the Indian community to
involve themselves in the school?
Mr Maguire: No. There is not a
strong Muslim element in the surrounding area. We have just two
children from a Muslim background in the school at the moment.
Q523 Mr Sanders: You say that the school
is made up of 50% Church of England and 50% Roman Catholic intake.
To what extent does that mix reflect the religious preferences
of the population in the area where the school is based?
Mr Maguire: The only evidence
I would have is on the number of applications we have seen at
the school and there is generally a higher level of Catholic applicants
than Church of England ones. That may indicate to some degree
the denominational allegiance of people in the community. I have
no evidence of information other than that.
Q524 Mr Sanders: You have no idea about
non Catholic or non Church of England.
Mr Maguire: I would suspect that
in the community about one third of people have no particular
denominational background, although I have to say that more people
do seem to be seeking baptism now that the school is on the estate
and requires children from a church background to attend.
Q525 Mr Sanders: How much of that do
you think is the school and how much of that do you think is religious
conviction?
Mr Maguire: Thank you for that
question. I shall take that back with me and give it to the parents
at school. One might say that the school has had a kind of evangelical
effect in the area because of the admission policy which requires
you to be baptised either Church of England or Roman Catholic.
If we can take cynicism out of it for a moment, what I would say
is that if people are of a mind to have their children baptised
in order to gain a place at the school, it seems to me that once
they have established the children in the school, they do become
committed to the spirit of the school and to our ethos and in
many cases are very supportive of the church which they then attend.
Q526 Mr Sanders: I do not doubt that
at all, but what about the parents who are not successful in getting
their children into the school. Are they then still assiduous
church attenders?
Mr Maguire: Probably not, but,
strange to say, some of them do, a small percentage. I know this
because later on, when places have become available in the school
these people have been successful in their application. The answer
would be: probably not.
Q527 Mr Sanders: If you are over-subscribed,
how do you select?
Mr Maguire: When we are over-subscribed,
we take on a degree of faithfulness or support of their churches
which would include commitment to the churches in how they work,
or whether they have played some kind of a role, or to do with
church attendance and so forth.
Q528 Mr Sanders: How does that work for
somebody who perhaps has to work on a Sunday?
Mr Maguire: It is very difficult
for them; very difficult. However, they are entitled to put in
an application with an accompanying letter and ask for a special
discretionary clause to be applied and so on. The governors view
every application very, very carefully and spend a remarkable
length of time on them. It is the most difficult aspect of the
school, along with the transfer to secondary school. They are
the two main issues that the school has problems with. There is
no issue with the joint denomination of the children at all, although
I did anticipate that being a problem. It has absolutely not been
an issue at all, it has been wonderful. Having enough places for
children and then finding good quality and appropriate schools
for them to transfer to is the real difficulty that we have.
Q529 Chairman: The Cantle review did
suggest that if you were going to have faith schools, then perhaps
25% should be able to come from people of a different faith. Would
it not be logical in your case to have 25% of your school population
coming from people on the estate who have no faith?
Mr Maguire: I think you ought
to ask that question of the people who have Church of England
and Roman Catholic faith when they are unable to take up a place
in the school themselves. There was not going to be a school at
all until the two churches formed a working party to establish
one. It is difficult for people who have supported their churches
and continue to do so, then to be told that their children are
unable to attend. It would certainly be possible to maintain the
two denominations in a school such as mine and then also engage
another quarter or third of children who were of other faiths
who wished to attend a church school.
Q530 Chairman: You talked about two children
in the school coming from a Muslim background. Were they able
to get in because you had space?
Mr Maguire: Yes, that happened
simply because there were spaces in two particular year groups.
Q531 Chairman: Do you not see the church
having a wider role in encouraging harmony within communities?
Mr Maguire: I do, but I cannot
rewrite the situation in my own school. It would be something
for people to think about if they were to begin a new project,
or even a secondary school project; it would be something very
worthwhile then.
Q532 Chairman: A lot of your parents
will actually have raised money over the years, particularly the
Roman Catholic ones, to extend Catholic education across a great
deal of the diocese. Do you think that they ought to be a little
more tolerant and feel that some of those places in some of those
schools in Oldham and some of the other communities ought to be
more widely available for non-Catholic children?
Mr Maguire: Raising funds to develop
Catholic schools for Catholic children should not be regarded
as intolerant, if that is what you are saying.
Q533 Chairman: What I am suggesting is
that if children are brought up in schools which are parallel
but separate, they would have less understanding of each other,
would they not?
Mr Maguire: Yes, they would.
Q534 Chairman: Therefore there are advantages
to encouraging them to be in the same schools.
Mr Maguire: Right.
Q535 Chairman: So would it no then be
reasonable for some of those Catholic schools across the North
of England to make available some of their places to non-Catholic
children?
Mr Maguire: And would you have
an answer for the children who were Catholic who wished to seek
a place in that school?
Q536 Chairman: Would it not be a question
of nearness to the school?
Mr Maguire: Not necessarily. Admission
policies often do use proximity to the school as a criterion.
That question is not so much the exclusion of other groups, but
the inclusion of additional groups to a school. I personally would
see it as an excellent idea, but I do not feel that you will create
harmony be preventing Catholic children taking up places in Catholic
schools.
Q537 Chairman: What you are really saying
is that if a school is short of pupils, then it is happy to take
anybody in, but if it is over-subscribed, then it is reasonable
for it to stick to pupils from the faith which supported the school.
Mr Maguire: Yes, but I would also
say that it is also reasonable, when thinking about the forming
of a new school, to take into account all the things you have
raised today.
Q538 Mr Cummings: By establishing a church
school involving two denominations, how have you avoided creating
barriers with other cultural groups? Do barriers exist?
Mr Maguire: That is the point
I was going to make. I do not see any barriers. You do not avoid
creating them, you just do not create them. They do not exist.
Q539 Mr Cummings: Has the local authority
or the local education authority helped you to prepare policies
and strategies to deal with the issue of improving social cohesion?
Mr Maguire: Yes, I think so. Liverpool
are quite proactive in all of that area and are very, very supportive
in equal opportunities and race equality, advisory support and
policy writing as well.
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