Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
2 FEBRUARY 2004
MR SIMON
THURLEY AND
MS DEBORAH
LAMB
Q100 Christine Russell: May I ask a really
easy question to start off with? Could you tell us what you believe
historic buildings uniquely have to offer regeneration?
Mr Thurley: We think a lot of
things, but probably three things in particular. There is a social,
economic and an environmental benefit. On the first one, the social
benefit, we believe very strongly that historic buildings—in
fact the term historic environment is the one we prefer to use
because it includes historic landscapes and parks and the like—contribute
a sense of place, a sense of belonging, a sense of history and
as such they have the opportunity to make somewhere into a place
which people value and where they feel at home and have a sense
of ownership and belonging. Secondly, we believe that there is
a significant economic benefit. We believe that the historic environment
adds economic value. I am sure we could give you a lot of examples
of regeneration projects where the historic environment has
provided a sound economic base, somewhere like Grainger Town in
Newcastle, where without the historic environment the new economic
activity would not have anything like the chance of developing
it has had. Thirdly, we think there is a considerable environmental
benefit through the notion of sustainable development. There is
a huge amount of waste generated by the construction and demolition
of buildings; something like 24% of all waste is generated by
demolition and construction. It is simply better in sustainability
terms to use and recycle old buildings than to demolish them and
to build new ones.
Q101 Christine Russell: What brought
about this change of thinking in English Heritage? Up to a few
years ago your main concern was to save old buildings for cultural,
symbolic reasons. You are now using the economic arguments as
well for saving buildings. What brought about the change?
Mr Thurley: There has been a general
move in all sorts of environmental agencies away from preservation
to management. We are now more interested in the management of
the historic environment. Certainly that does include preservation
on some occasions, but the key to it is actually finding a way
of managing it so you can unlock the benefits it gives to people,
particularly in terms of quality of life.
Q102 Sir Paul Beresford: Do you ever
consider that there are occasions when listing buildings is a
serious impediment to development?
Mr Thurley: The short answer is
no, it should not be. We have a system of listing buildings in
this country which really dates from immediately after the war.
The DCMS is currently undertaking a review of the heritage protection
legislation which will hopefully result in a considerable modernisation
of the system which will remove some of what we regard as procedural
problems which the current system has. If it worked properly,
the listing of buildings should do quite the reverse: it should
actually highlight the significance and the value of the assets
which we have, which are irreplaceable assets and give people
a sense of history.
Q103 Sir Paul Beresford: Can I give you
a tiny example? Several years ago the then government was looking
at the extension of the high-speed rail link from King's Cross
out to the tunnel and there was a spot of difficulty with some
English Heritage individual, admittedly some level down from your
position. There were some gasometers, at least there was the framework
of some gasometers. They were in the way and the little man at
English Heritage decided, if I remember correctly, that the pump
was special and that the latticework was special. These two hideous
pieces of latticework had no gasometers within them, the Science
Museum said that the pump was not special and if a drawing could
be sent that would be fine and we could scrap the pump as far
as they were concerned. However, English Heritage persisted and
that cost that project an extra £1 million just to take them
down, to have them stored so that someone, somewhere, heaven knows
where, could put these blessed bits of latticework up. If anyone
put them up anywhere near my sight and that of most of this country,
we would have shot them down. Would you not have thought that
was an obstacle?
Mr Thurley: I cannot comment on
that particular incident; I was not working for English Heritage
at that time. What I would talk about is the general principle,
which is that one of our key remits is to make sure that the things
which are valued by people today as part of their history, their
past, are still able to be valued by people in the future. In
very, very, very many, in fact in the vast majority of cases of
regeneration, those buildings, those structures actually make
a positive contribution to the end result.
Q104 Sir Paul Beresford: Just suppose
an application were put through or suggestion were put through
that in fact it was an obstacle to regeneration, would you
ever consider recommending delisting?
Mr Thurley: Yes, it has been recommended
on a number of occasions. There is a very important point to make
here and that is that there are two parts to the process of listing
and development control. There is the action of listing, which
identifies significance and puts it on a list. That does not mean
that the building needs to be kept forever, it does not mean that
it needs to be kept forever in the condition it is now. What it
does mean is that when development is considered, it is one of
the factors which are taken into consideration. That is when planning
guidance comes in. What those guidance notes do is bring a much
wider spectrum of consideration to that particular designated
asset and that wider spectrum includes economics, it includes
regeneration, it may include the political and social condition
around. What that allows us to do is to look at something which
by general agreement is of value to society and decide whether
that thing ought to be altered, taken away, destroyed or whether
it ought to be nurtured and converted to some alternative use.
Q105 Sir Paul Beresford: Does English
Heritage ever review its listings?
Mr Thurley: You can apply to have
a building de-listed.
Q106 Sir Paul Beresford: No, I did not
ask that. English Heritage seems to be listing constantly. One
wonders whether it reaches the stage where you have a host of
examples of 1950s and 1960s ironwork which could have one or two
examples and because of the impediments some of the others may
produce to urban regeneration they could be de-listed.
Mr Thurley: There are about 450,000
listed buildings in this country and so far as I am aware at the
moment there has been no proposal to review the entire list. In
a way though, that is a red herring. What is much more important
is the issue of management. As I said earlier, we have moved away
from looking solely at preservation. What we are looking at is
management. The important issue is how you manage that asset.
I think you will find that if you look at our activities and if
you look at the activities of the best local authorities, we are
all moving away from saying this is something which must never
be touched, to asking how the thing can be used for the long term
for the good of the people who live around here.
Sir Paul Beresford: Do write and tell
me how we could have used the gasometer framework?
Q107 Mr O'Brien: As you prefer preservation
more than the question of helping to sustain communities, why
did it take so long for English Heritage to move to encouraging
sustainability in communities?
Mr Thurley: I do not think we
feel we have taken so long. We have been involved in what was
not then called regeneration for many, many years. We have been
encouraging derelict, rundown areas to regenerate. We have been
giving small grants to high streets and to communities.
Q108 Mr O'Brien: That was to preserve
properties.
Mr Thurley: Yes, but the act of
preservation has increased the sense of worth and the sense of
value that people have in a place and that in turn has triggered
regeneration.
Q109 Mr O'Brien: When did English Heritage
get into regeneration?
Mr Thurley: We would say that
we have always been involved in what is now called regeneration.
Q110 Mr O'Brien: When did you first publish
your historic environment report?
Mr Thurley: That was first published
two years ago.
Q111 Mr O'Brien: Why did it take so long?
You were saying that you have been involved in this for a long
while but you only made a report two years ago. In the 1960s local
authorities and local communities accepted that heritage can encourage
and sustain community renewal. So we were involved with that 40
years ago. You published your report two years ago. Where have
you been?
Mr Thurley: I think you are referring
to The State of England's Historic Environment report,
which is a compendium of statistics. I know, because I was involved
in making the decision to publish it, that what we realised was
that what we needed to do was make the case much more clearly,
particularly to the ODPM and put some facts and figures out to
show how £10,000 of heritage regeneration funding unlocked
£46,000 of investment in that area. We live in a world where
those sorts of statistics are vitally important if your case is
to be proved. We felt we actually ought to look back over the
many, many years we had been involved in what is now called regeneration
and make the case and publish the statistics, which is what we
did.
Q112 Mr O'Brien: How do you engage communities
directly? How do you value people's views on this?
Ms Lamb: The very fact of actually
dealing with historic buildings, buildings which already exist,
means that there is a community there, who live there, who work
there. Focusing on regeneration based on historic buildings means
that there is a community of people we can engage in the process
of development. Working with historic buildings gives you a chance
to engage the local people much more positively in what is happening
to that area than would otherwise be the case if it were all to
be knocked down and something else built in its place.
Q113 Mr O'Brien: How is value added to
your scheme?
Ms Lamb: Value added from . .
.?
Q114 Mr O'Brien: Engaging communities.
Ms Lamb: Because all the research
we have done shows that people value historic buildings. They
are what give a place a real sense of identity, distinctiveness,
it is what makes people feel that their place is special, different,
and it can engage that level of confidence and commitment to the
future.
Q115 Mr O'Brien: I accept that communities
do value that. How does English Heritage get involved in valuing
communities and their proposals?
Ms Lamb: We get involved in a
number of different ways and there are several specific projects
which we have done which looked very directly and engaged the
community in particular aspects. There is a project we have done
in Liverpool called Memory Block which is very much about working
with local people and finding out exactly what it is they value
in the place around them, what it means to them. We are currently
looking at doing some work in Bradford in terms of developing
a heritage trail with the New Deal for Communities partnership
there. That is precisely the sort of thing which helps people
connect with their local environment and then build on that to
develop regeneration proposals. More generally, the point would
be that what we would look to do would be to help the people responsible
for regeneration schemes within local authorities and help them
develop their scheme, engaging with local communities as well.
It is not all for English Heritage, but we have a role in helping
other people to do that as well.
Q116 Mr O'Brien: Is that community led?
Is what you have just talked about in Liverpool and Bradford community
led?
Ms Lamb: It involves the community.
Q117 Mr O'Brien: Is it community led?
Mr Thurley: An example I would
give of heavily community-led regeneration is Liverpool where
the whole of the regeneration of the historic part of Liverpool
was started by the Liverpool Echo's Stop the Rot
campaign, which was entirely generated by the people of Liverpool.
We have very much come in on the back of that to provide the expertise
the council needs to deal with that.
Q118 Mr O'Brien: So you did not encourage
it, you came on the back of it? How do you encourage community-led
regeneration?
Mr Thurley: We encourage it by
helping local authorities who are the frontline developers of
all these types of project to take the historic environment seriously
and to take the historic environment out to the people with whom
they are engaging.
Q119 Chairman: You have cited a MORI
survey which looked at attitudes and I am sure most people, like
motherhood and apple pie, think keeping historic buildings is
a good idea. What have you done to assess the costs they are prepared
to sustain in preserving or conserving or managing a particular
building?
Mr Thurley: We have not yet done
any such research. You can always use an opinion poll in almost
any way you want. In a way, it is stating the obvious that people
care about the historic buildings around them. It is very difficult
to attach a value to them. What is clear is that the vast majority
of requests which come to us, for instance for listing, come from
private individuals. There is a very, very strongly held feeling
out there that this is important to them, but we have not yet
put a financial value onto it.
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