Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-259)
9 FEBRUARY 2004
TONY HIRST
OBE, MS PAULA
GRIFFITHS, THE
VERY REVD
PETER JUDD
AND PETER
LONGMAN
Q240 Andrew Bennett: You are really kidding
us, are you not, that some of these old theatres actually offer
people the sort of leg room and space they want and the sorts
of toilets that are needed for a modern theatre?
Mr Longman: It depends which one
you go to. If you go to one that has been done up, like the Lyceum
Theatre at Sheffield, you will find that sensitive architects
were able to re-tier the thing to reduce the numbers of seats,
which is often one of the things you have to do. Backstage you
can rebuild the whole thing entirely—new stage, new dressing
rooms, all of those things have happened at Hackney Empire and,
thanks to an Arts Council grant, they applied for the site on
the corner so there are extra toilets, there is a lift and disabled
access the whole way through.
Q241 Andrew Bennett: So how much is conservation
and how much is really just opportunism to use an old building
for a new function?
Mr Longman: I have no doubt whatsoever
that if you talked to those responsible at Hackney Empire they
would not swap that building for anything because there is something
magical and wonderful about the building.
Q242 Andrew Bennett: But you have just
told me that they have knocked down everything behind the stage.
Mr Longman: I do not think the
stages are usually the most historic, interesting bits. As I say,
they were not intended to be kept in use for ever. They were utilitarian.
It is the stage and backstage things that have changed and modernised
most over the years. There is a problem about sight lines, there
is a problem about knee-lengths, if you like, but a sensitive
architect with an understanding of putting the right sorts of
seats in can overcome those issues.
Q243 Andrew Bennett: Are there not too
many theatres, if you look round the country, that are trying
to be preserved?
Mr Longman: I would not say "theatres
. . . trying to be preserved". If the question is, are there
too many theatres in use, no, I do not think so. They will not
all be in use for Arts Council subsidised expensive touring shows.
Some of them, like Lancaster, which I mentioned, and Southsea,
can be run by amateurs on a voluntary basis. A lot of local authorities
like to run or have a theatre and there is still a thriving commercial
sector as well.
Q244 Andrew Bennett: You mentioned the
one in Cardiff being handed over to being a pub. Do you see much
more scope for theatres being converted in that way and being
a cornerstone of regeneration?
Mr Longman: I can give you plenty
of examples of theatre buildings which are not currently in use,
and I will write if it would be helpful. We call them sleeping
beauties. They are fine buildings, they are still there. They
may have a potential to come back but in the meantime they can
serve a very useful role, whether it as a pub or a club or even
a church in some instances.
Q245 Mr O'Brien: Mr Hirst, your organisation
is primarily concerned with industrial buildings—
Mr Hirst: With inland waterways.
Q246 Mr O'Brien: —and with works
of engineering designed with a particular purpose in mind. How
can their special interest be safeguarded with change of use?
Mr Hirst: It has to be by the
appropriate people who are in charge of the project and consulting
people who have an interest.
Q247 Mr O'Brien: You have not got any
input into the future design of these buildings when they are
handed over?
Mr Hirst: Our organisation does
not specifically do that. It can comment but it does not specifically
have a direct input.
Q248 Mr O'Brien: What we are looking
at here is urban regeneration. Therefore, if we are to regenerate
the urban areas and maintain the main principle of the buildings
that we have inherited and the conservation of some of these civil
engineering works, does IWAAC or some other body involved with
these buildings have some input into the design?
Mr Hirst: Yes, a lot of people
have an input into its future function and that affects the design.
The detailed design is achieved by making sure you get the right
architect to do the work. The developers and the people who own
the building, the people who are going to use the building, are
the ones who write the specification. Part of the role of conservation
officers and the people who are in charge of that aspect of things
is to ensure that the integrity of the building is not destroyed.
Q249 Mr O'Brien: How can the special
interest be safeguarded then?
Mr Hirst: By having the right
people doing the right job.
Q250 Mr O'Brien: And the skills? Are
you satisfied that the right people are there and the skills are
there?
Mr Hirst: More often than not.
Some restorations have not worked. A lot have and have been very
successful and have kept the integrity but you can always raise
the standards. This comes back to the bit about local authorities.
We talked about conservation officers earlier. They have a key
role in it.
Q251 Mr O'Brien: In the town and city
centres we have had wharves and wharving facilities and these
are now being dispensed with to build domestic or other buildings.
In the interests of urban regeneration is it a good thing to take
the wharves away?
Mr Hirst: I do not think you can
make a general statement about it because it varies. There are
an awful lot of wharves that have no potential future whatsoever
as wharves and therefore it is not unreasonable to build on them.
If you have a major building on one that is linked to the canal
and you can find a waterway-linked use for it, that is the ideal,
but it is not necessarily so and it may not be sustainable. If
you say you can get rid of all wharves then you will get sterilisation
and you will not get urban renewal. You have got to carefully
pick and match what you want to do in generating income and a
new centre to an area of urban renewal and maintaining the integrity
of the structure and the waterway.
Q252 Mr O'Brien: This is one way of getting
materials into a town or city centre and reducing the amount of
traffic that would be using the roads. Is that not part of the
concern that you have?
Mr Hirst: It is, and British Waterways
have done that and there are new schemes starting.
Q253 Mr O'Brien: Where have they done
it?
Mr Hirst: There is one down at
Uxbridge where they are shifting gravel by water and there are
plans for the Thames and other waterways. With the narrow waterways
you have got very limited capacity to take heavy goods on the
waterway at an economic price.
Q254 Mr O'Brien: Any other examples?
Mr Hirst: In Yorkshire there are
an awful lot of examples of waterways being used extensively for
freight traffic.
Q255 Mr O'Brien: I am from Yorkshire
but I cannot think of any.
Mr Hirst: It is a growing and
I am sure over the next few years there will be even more. British
Waterways are being active in getting more.
Q256 Andrew Bennett: Is not Gloucester
an example of a bit of a muddle between conservation and trying
to make the docks function there? It is all right—just say
yes.
Mr Hirst: I understand where you
are coming from but I would not like to make a judgment because
I have not been to Gloucester for a few years, so it would be
unfair to do so.
Q257 Andrew Bennett: Let me go on to
the question of church buildings. The Committee went to Norwich
recently and there are great claims in Norwich that Norwich has
got more medieval churches than almost anywhere else in Britain,
and yet 80% of them you could not go in to look at the architecture.
Is that not a disgrace?
Ms Griffiths: It is a shame, is
it not? I think quite a lot of the ones you went to see were probably
redundant rather than churches in use. There is a lot more that
needs to be done between local authorities and church authorities.
Again, picking up the education, in a place like Norwich there
is tremendous potential for using the buildings as a reason for
people to go to that place and to understand and learn about it.
I would hope that there could be encouragement for them to work
more closely together. I referred earlier to the Churches Conservation
Trust, which is the national body which looks after 330-odd redundant
churches. The ones you saw in Norwich would not be looked after
by that body. The Churches Conservation Trust have been working
very hard to increase access and visitors and the work of the
community on the churches which they look after, and in the past
few years that has made quite a difference to their own churches.
Q258 Andrew Bennett: And churchyards?
Are they really designed for winos and other people to hang out
in?
Ms Griffiths: Again, that is a
question of working with the local authority, is it not? Churchyards
are terrifically important spaces; that is right. Again, they
can give a very negative message if they are not looked after
and are inhabited by winos. It is important to work together.
Again, in Norwich, some work has been done, and in Ipswich some
work has been done in looking at churchyards and putting some
money towards them. I agree that more needs to be done.
Q259 Mr Cummings: May I address this
question to the Church Heritage Forum? In your evidence you point
to a number of impressive church-led community projects. Do you
think that you could have more projects if local churches were
to work more closely with other agencies based at a strategic
level, for example, local authorities, local primary care trusts,
child care organisations?
Ms Griffiths: I am sure there
are lots of examples. We quoted in the paper St John's, Hoxton,
which was an example of an early 19th century church which ten
years ago was creeping with dry rot and desperately in need of
renovation. It has now been restored with English Heritage and
Heritage Lottery Fund money and there is a children's nursery
in the body of the church itself and there is a computer centre
and a gym for disabled people in the crypt. That is great, and
again that symbol of despair has become a real symbol of hope.
I am sure there is potential. It is a question of breaking through
the suspicion which sometimes is found with local authorities
that the church is different from the rest of the community and
that the church is perhaps there to proselytise.
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