Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
26 APRIL 2004
SIR JOHN
EGAN, MS
MAUREEN HOLKHAM
AND MR
DAVID LUNTS
Q40 Christine Russell: What may be appropriate
in a market town or a historic city, where it may be necessary,
it would not necessarily be in a large conurbation?
Sir John Egan: In some of these
large areas like the Thames Gateway we have to do complete town
planning, we have to build a new city, we have to create it in
this way. What worried me is the way we are currently going at
it is very piecemeal and we will probably still get poor outcomes.
I am very worried about the environmental standards which will
be created. I believe it is quite feasible for our industry to
create very low emission buildings today but we could not do them
cost effectively. If we set the standards very soon and demand
that by eight years from now we are building environmentally suitable
houses then we can do. We certainly will not do it unless we agree
them, that is what we have to do and set the supply chains in
operation to do it. It is very much horses for courses. It is
a question of each local authority making its plan for the future,
its plan to be sustainable, then first of all putting the infrastructure
plan together and then bringing the development industry in to
help them achieve the vision they have of the future. I think
this vision should be shared by all of the members of the local
authority. The councillors, everybody, should share a view of
where they want to go in the future and that should be shared
by all of the givers of national services and it is a view that
they can then share with the development industry who can help
them to achieve it. We saw that in places like Manchester and
Birmingham, we saw very wholesome—answering an earlier question
about what kind of developments worked—the development industry
was always very happy when the local authority had a good high
quality plan for the future and they knew what they wanted and
then they could work in partnership together.
Q41 Christine Russell: There is such
a thing as local democracy and I am sure you would agree, maybe
you have discovered, that it is far easier where you have overall
political control, you have some clear vision, you have some strong
civic leadership, it is rather more difficult in those area where
there is not that consensus that you have said is necessary.
Sir John Egan: The evidence we
had was that where you try very hard to listen to the people and
find out what they want and then sell to them solutions that answer
those requirements, because you cannot expect people to automatically
take them, you have to go out and really sell the solution you
have on offer then the results were very good. I think one of
the critical skills is the communication of talking to the people
and delivering something which is going to fit their vision of
the future.
Q42 Chairman: This concept of mixed development
seems to me an excellent one, with hindsight should Terminal 5
have had some residential accommodation in it?
Sir John Egan: I said there had
to be special rules for incinerators!
Q43 Chairman: Are you calling Terminal
5 an incinerator?
Sir John Egan: Some things are
not automatically good neighbours and those things have to be
separated off. For example I would be advising the Government
to take all of the land on the flight path of Stanstead away from
development so that nobody started putting things down the flight
path and creating the problems of Heathrow 20 years from now.
It is still farm land, let us not let people develop housing on
it, let us take it away from that possibility and then at least
we have a good possibility that we can develop that airport without
having the demerits of having a city all of the way round it.
Q44 Mr O'Brien: How many elected members
from local government were on the task group?
Sir John Egan: How many elected
members were on my task group? None.
Q45 Mr O'Brien: None. Yet the whole thing
is that it should be for local government to bring this to fruition.
In chapter two where it says, "Responsibilities and processes
for delivery", and you refer to local authorities being the
lead. You confirm that with your comments. How can expect local
authorities to co-operate when they are not involved with the
work on the ground?
Sir John Egan: We did have a lot
of representatives from local government. We had Brian Briscoe
who is Chief Executive of the Local Government Association, we
had Howard Bernstein who is the Chief Executive of Manchester
City Council and we also had a special meeting with local authorities,
including the chief executives of cities and of rural areas, and
so on and so forth. Yes, we did take our evidence through them.
Of course do not forget we did have a lot of discussions with
people themselves.
Q46 Mr O'Brien: But not one on the task
group.
Sir John Egan: No, we did not.
Q47 Mr O'Brien: Why was that?
Sir John Egan: Interestingly enough
I think we had two or three people who had had experience as local
authority councillors but we certainly did not have anybody there
who was a local authority councillor at the time. You ask me that
question and I do not have any answer. I would have been happy
to take people on if Brian Briscoe or Harry Bernstein had asked
me to.
Q48 Mr O'Brien: How many people from
the former mining communities gave evidence to you? I represent
a former mining area and one of the issues that the local authorities
in those areas like to deal with is deprivation and the resources
from Government into those areas have gone to ease the deprivation
in those areas. A lot of work has been done but there is still
a lot to be done. I would assume if we are going to look at the
responsibilities of process for delivery we should look at it
across the board. You refer to the core cities in here and you
accept that a lot of local authorities have not yet come to look
at an overall plan or an overall scheme. We are not looking at
the real situations, we are not looking at the areas where there
should be some sustainability in this Report and I consider that
you have failed a lot of communities by not addressing that situation.
I would put it to you had you had local elected representatives
from the former industrial areas, who are working hard to try
and bring some sustainability back to their communities, you would
have had a different Report because their input would have been
grossly different to what we have at the present time.
Sir John Egan: I think I was responding
to the immediate requirements facing us which are to build some
new communities of large size in the South East that I did not
want to be built badly. I did not want to go through another 20
or 30 years building things which would not be adequate for the
future. The thing which was foremost in my mind was that of coping
with economic success rather than, as it were, economic failure.
I have to say, and I will say this quite strongly to you, I would
still say the same processes are there. The leaders of the community
have to come up first with their ideas of what will lead to the
future economic prosperity of their area, and that is the absolute
key part of the programme. Then we have to be able to respond
with the development of the community in line with what is going
to be a prosperous community. I do not think the process is any
different.
Q49 Mr O'Brien: You have just inferred
that the terms of reference that you accepted was to look at the
development of the South East.
Sir John Egan: No, I was aware
of the pressures which were there. Indeed I was also asked whilst
this process was going on if I could give the Government some
advice in terms of their development of the Thames Gateway area.
I was aware that one of the most pressing things to do was to
cope with the problems of economic success, which is the fact
that the South East is going to have to grow much more quickly
than it has been recently.
Q50 Mr O'Brien: Why?
Sir John Egan: Because it has
to. It has the business there.
Q51 Mr O'Brien: That is the problem.
If we follow your lead on that, Sir John, then the resources which
should be distributed right across the regions will not be if
it is channelled into the South East. Where do urban regeneration
corporations and urban regeneration companies fit into your scheme?
Sir John Egan: I am particularly
anxious that we try to get all of the communities right and not
just create special vehicles to get occasional places right.
Q52 Mr O'Brien: These are in existence
already.
Sir John Egan: We can create special
vehicles to get particular places right but why should we not
try to get every community in the country right.
Q53 Mr O'Brien: If you are saying the
development of the South East is the prime objective then obviously
the people in the North, the North East, North West and the Midlands
will suffer. This has been pointed out on more than one occasion,
the resources which should be channelled into the former industrial
areas is going into the South East. I would have assumed that
a Report like this would have mentioned that or given some support
to the fact that there has to be a redistribution of resources.
One of the problems we have in local government is the question
of financing. Yet you are saying in your Report we need to have
further financing for local government for this to be achieved.
Sir John Egan: I am not sure whether
your and my plans of creating future prosperity would actually
chime. I do not think just spending government money in areas
is going to create future prosperity. I was brought up in a mill
town and a mining area in Lancashire and there is not any unemployment
there today because in the main they have jobs in Manchester which
is only 20 miles away and there is a very fine motorway going
from one to the other. That is the way that has been resolved
and it has worked with the free market creating a solution. I
do not think more of Government money poured into Rawtenstall
would have made a longer term solution than has been found. I
am not quite sure I would agree with you that pouring vast amounts
of Government money into communities that were designed for the
coal industry is necessarily the right approach overall for the
country as a whole. I just do not think I agree with.
Q54 Mr O'Brien: Have you checked the
rate of pay for the jobs which have been created since the mines
and the mills have closed, Sir John?
Sir John Egan: I do not think
I am going to be able to help you. On the other hand the one thing
I will say is, if I were trying to create a future sustainable
community in the North as well as I was doing for the South I
would follow the same processes that I put in my Report. I just
do not agree with you that you are right and I am wrong.
Q55 Mr O'Brien: The question is that
we have organisations in place, like I said the regeneration companies
and corporations, could you explain the role of the existing local
strategic partnerships and what will their role play in the process?
Could they be broadened to ensure a more effective delivery mechanism?
Sir John Egan: I think the local
strategic partnership is the core way of delivering a sustainable
community, yes.
Q56 Chairman: There is this contradiction,
you are saying give local authorities the power, are you not?
Sir John Egan: Yes.
Q57 Chairman: Then you are saying, do
not bother to get elected on to a local council, just apply and
you will be on the local strategic partnership where you can have
your say that way.
Sir John Egan: The local authority
is going to give leadership. That partnership is going to include
all of the service givers in the area. The leadership unquestionably
should come from the local authority.
Q58 Chairman: You are just there to rubber
stamp what the local authority is saying.
Sir John Egan: No. You have to
work in partnership, and I think that is one of the critical skills.
We are saying we have to learn to get out of our silos and work
to get an optimum solution given all of the issues and all of
the problems that all of the members of the partnership have.
One of the critical skills I would like to see developed is that
of getting buy-in from various ideas and not just simply from
those people who work for you.
Q59 Christine Russell: I do not want
to dampen your enthusiasm, Sir John, about partnership working
but it is incredibly difficult to engage the private sector in
these local strategic partnerships. All round the country they
are now up and running and there is good engagement. People are
generally getting out of their silos but the people who are getting
out of their silos tend to be in the public services, you are
now positively getting people from housing talking to people from
health and talking to the police. It so difficult in most parts
of the country where there is a real struggle to get the private
sector involved. Maybe the reason is, particularly in the construction
industry, a lot of the companies do not have local bases, they
have regional bases. Through the review and compiling your Report
have you any tips or hints as to how better partners can work
to engage the private sector?
Sir John Egan: I think the natural
partners will be the development industry who really want to develop
in your area. I would like to see that very much more in the way
of a partnership relationship. The reason we were not achieving
world class construction was because people were failing to work
as partners with each other within the construction industry.
It does not come naturally but if you have a clear common cause
and a clear objective and you have started to work on your processes
together, yes, people will work together if they can see they
are going to get results from it. The fact that it is the right
thing to do and it is difficult does not mean to say you should
not start with it.
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