Examination of Witnesses (Questions 35
- 39)
TUESDAY 22 JUNE 2004
MS SIOBHAN
SPENCER, MS
CATHERINE BEARD,
MR TOM
SWEENEY, MR
CLIFF CODONA
AND MR
CHARLES SMITH
Q35 Chairman: Could I welcome you
all to the second session this morning and ask you to identify
yourselves for the record, please.
Mr Codona: My name is Cliff Codona.
I am Chair of the National Travellers' Action Group and part of
the Coalition.
Mr Sweeney: My name is Tom Sweeney.
I am Co-Chair of the Irish Traveller Movement. I am also a committee
member of the Coalition for Travellers and Gypsies.
Mr Smith: I am Charles Smith.
I am Chair of the Gypsy Council, a member of the Coalition, plus
President of the Labour Party Campaign for Travellers' Rights
and the UN representative for gypsies in this country.
Ms Beard: My name is Catherine
Beard. I am Chairwoman of the National Association of Gypsy Women
for the UK. I am also a member of the committee for the traveller,
Coalition.
Ms Spencer: Siobhan Spencer, Derbyshire
Gypsy Liaison Group. I am also a member of the traveller Coalition.
Chairman: Does anyone want to say anything
by way of introduction on your behalf or are you happy for us
to go straight to questions? Straight to questions. Right.
Q36 Mr O'Brien: When we start questioning
people, we always come back to site provision and facilities,
and research conducted by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
estimates there is a need of between 1,000 and 2,000 additional
permanent pitches and 2,000 to 2,500 additional transit pitches.
These are required by 2007. Do you agree with those estimates?
Ms Beard: Yes.
Mr Sweeney: Yes.
Ms Spencer: Yes. We are a self-help
voluntary group. We started a few years ago trying to help people
through the planning application system. I can verify those sites
are definitely needed. There is a need for a cross-section of
sites all across the country. A lot of families are opting for
smaller sites, small private sites, and they are willing to put
their money into that. As a group we have been snowed under with
people wanting to provide for themselves.
Mr Smith: I disagree really. I
do not think there should be a set number on sites. I think it
should be an open-ended policy, the same as housing, because I
feel that caravan sites and living in caravans should be an acceptable
form of accommodation. If you have a set number and you provide
those sites, what happens to the generation after? We are forever
being seen as a special need and I do not think that is right.
I think gypsy and traveller accommodation should be tied in with
everybody else's accommodation. Housing is an open-ended thing
and I do not see why caravan site provision should not be the
same.
Q37 Mr O'Brien: How would you manage
that?
Mr Smith: With respect, I think
you would manage it the same way as you do housing. You have rented
accommodation, you have private accommodation, you have social
housing, and there is no reason why caravan sites cannot operate
in the same way.
Q38 Chairman: Is it not important
that you have a target? You are basically saying to the Government,
"This is the shortfall now. We at least need to get that
number of extra pitches into place."
Mr Smith: It is, but we are always
living with a shortfall, that is the problem, because by the time
they get around to providing our sites, if they provide them and
it takes them 10 years to provide them, in 10 years' time we are
still going to have 2,000 pitches that we are going to be short
of. If we continually say, "This is the target," and
we only ever aim ourselves for that target, we are never, ever
going to fulfil the need for caravan site provision.
Q39 Mr O'Brien: What would you say
about Dr Kenrick's view that in 100 years' time there will be
no more travellers?
Mr Smith: I do not agree with
Dr Kenrick on that. I think he is totally wrong.
Ms Spencer: He is wrong. You ask
the gypsy people.
Ms Beard: At the end of the day,
we have been here for over 600 years and we have not changed our
way of living in those 600 years, so I do not think Dr Kenrick
can actually say what we are going to be doing in 100 years' time.
I would like also to take issue with the point he made about there
only being 700 people who move up and down this country, because
Mr Kenrick does not know one end of the country from the other
and our people move continuously.
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