Examination of Witnesses (Questions 91
- 99)
TUESDAY 22 JUNE 2004
MR HUGHIE
SMITH AND
MR TOM
LINGARD
Q91 Chairman: Could we welcome you
to the last session this morning of our inquiry and ask you to
identify yourselves for the record, please.
Mr Smith: My name is Hughie Smith.
Mr Lingard: I am Tom Lingard,
Assistant Secretary of the Gypsy Council.
Q92 Chairman: You want to say a few
words by way of introduction. Is that right?
Mr Smith: That is right. First
of all, I think this report that we have looked at and these amendments
which have been kindly sent to us may be a little bit inaccurate.
They list organisations. We are the Gypsy Council. I think that
somewhere down the line somebody has made a mistake and I think
we would like to be described as the "Gypsy Council"—which
we are—and an "all-gypsy organisation".
Chairman: Thank you very much.
Q93 Chris Mole: In your evidence
you say "there are too few official Gypsy sites—both
public and private—for too many Gypsies". How many
sites do you think are needed?
Mr Smith: I think at the end of
the day there has got to be somewhere in the region of 300 sites
to accommodate all the families that need accommodation. One of
the biggest problems is that, whilst some people are pushing for
legislation, we are not too worried about legislation. There are
other ways that Gypsies can be dealt with rather than through
legislation. I remember when the Caravan Sites Act was first implemented
in 1970 on 1 April, what happened was, whilst the number of Gypsy
caravans was round about 3,500, very, very quickly within the
next few years in the late 1960s and early 1970s we found that
possibly 4,000 families came out of houses. They were the Gypsy
families who had more or less been settled in houses for some
years. Many, many district councils in this country had caravan
sites which they closed for one reason or another and the Gypsies
become house-less. One of the big problems then, of course, were
families who stayed in areas such as Bradford, Birmingham, Leeds
and the West Midlands conurbations who took up the sites which
were actually built for the travelling Gypsies and that increased
the numbers. We did research between the years 1973 and 1976,
and we found at that time there were around 7,500-8,000 caravans
on the road. Previous to that the government was telling us there
were on 3,500.
Q94 Chris Mole: Your estimate is
that there are some 320 official Gypsy sites and you think that
should be roughly doubled?
Mr Smith: I am quite sure it has
[sic]. One of the biggest problems is that not enough emphasis
is placed upon private site initiatives. I think the majority
of Gypsies in this country would much prefer to live on their
own site given the problems we have with incompatibility, where
half of us cannot live together. That does not mean English and
Irish; that means family to family. That is one of our biggest
problems.
Q95 Chris Mole: You have touched
on private sites. Can you tell us a bit more about what type and
the size of site; how much more should be local authority; and
how much should be private; how much for transient families and
how much for residential?
Mr Smith: We have always advised
local authorities that there should be a maximum of 15 families
on a caravan site—it is much better for everybody concerned.
What I should state here quite clearly is that we do not support
multiple applications where 30 families perhaps buy a piece of
land and try and develop it. We had a problem quite some years
ago with the local authority in Rugby with the caravan site at
Ryton-on-Dunsmore. Some of the families bought some land down
there and put in an application for about 15 families, which we
strongly supported. Later on, of course, the field was extended
and ended up with some 30-odd families on it. At that stage we
suggested to the families that it was far too many. It was the
equivalent of a small village moving into an area, and that was
causing massive problems. It was causing problems not only for
the Gypsies concerned and the educationalists, but it was also
causing problems for the settled community, because Ryton-on-Dunsmore
is such a small place.
Q96 Mr Betts: What facilities should
be provided on sites?
Mr Smith: First-class facilities.
We have always advised that the best facilities that can be provided
should be provided. There is no reason why that cannot happen
in this day and age. Every site we have been involved with in
opening, and every site we have been involved in managing, has
good facilities—individual facilities for each family. I
understand at the present time some advice is being given to the
ODPM that maybe basic facilities should be provided on transit
sites. We do not agree with that. We have always said that even
on transit sites there should be individual facilities. In this
day and age there is no reason why water closets cannot be provided
on sites. People are talking nowadays around Norfolk about dry
toilets, Elsan toilets; they have been tried. Every system of
site management, every system relating to facilities, has been
tried in this country. The people to suffer most are the Gypsies,
simply because they have very, very basic facilities and they
do not work.
Q97 Sir Paul Beresford: Previous
witnesses have stated water, electricity and sewerage individually?
Mr Smith: Yes. Some years ago
we advised Somerset County Council on the best way forward with
a transit site. We advised them that they should provide water
toilets on that site, which they did. That is possibly about the
best transit site in this country.
Q98 Mr Clelland: We have heard from
previous witnesses that one of the desires is for each pitch to
have its own toilet block and washbasin etc. Surely today's modern
mobile homes have in-built showers, washbasins and toilets. Providing
the pitch has the drainage and water connections there would not
be any need, would there, for individual toilet blocks?
Mr Smith: When we talk about individual
toilet blocks we talk about individual toilets to each family.
Q99 Mr Clelland: Does not the modern
mobile home contain that anyway?
Mr Smith: The modern mobile home
is quite different from Gypsy caravan sites. It would be a different
type of people who used them. The mobile home parks are quite
different. The majority of those mobile homes are plumbed into
facilities anyway, but the Gypsy caravan sites are not.
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