Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 119)
TUESDAY 22 JUNE 2004
MR HUGHIE
SMITH AND
MR TOM
LINGARD
Q100 Mr Clelland: You are saying
that the caravans your members are using do not have the inbuilt
facilities?
Mr Smith: No, they do not have
the inbuilt facilities, not in the caravans; they are Gypsy caravans,
travelling caravans. The only caravans which do have that facility
are mobile homes, the static units that may be on mobile home
parks.
Q101 Mr Clelland: Many of the people
of the thousands we are talking about, rather than the 700 which
was referred to earlier, will be in more modern mobile home facilities.
Could they not use different kinds of sites?
Mr Smith: It depends on the types
of families. If Gypsy families want Gypsy caravans they have Gypsy
caravans. In all the sites we manage we do not have any static
units, except for the manager. We manage some 21 sites in this
country. Each one of those caravans is occupied by Gypsies.
Q102 Mr O'Brien: There has been lots
of evidence given today about the need for permanent sites and
sites in various areas. Who should provide the sites?
Mr Smith: I think there should
be a mix. It should be the local authority and the Gypsies themselves.
Q103 Mr O'Brien: Are you saying that
it should be a statutory responsibility on local authorities?
Mr Smith: I do not think there
needs to be a statutory responsibility. I think the district councils
can take that onboard with the housing accommodation, like the
settled communities. There is no reason for that. The worst thing
that ever happened to us in this country was the Caravan Site
Act.
Q104 Mr O'Brien: We have some evidence
where some local authorities are saying, "We do not assemble
land. We do not have the ownership of land and, therefore, we
are not in a position to help with the provision". How would
you manage that kind of situation?
Mr Smith: What kind of situation?
Q105 Mr O'Brien: If someone like
yourself, or some other organisation, applies to the local authority
for information and cooperation in obtaining a site for a private
site development and the local authority says, "Sorry, we
don't have land. We don't assemble land and, therefore, we can't
help you", if you are saying local authorities are responsible
how would you get over that kind of problem if it is not statutory?
Mr Smith: Some years ago around
1982 we formed the Caravan Site Cooperative, hoping at that time
that what would happen was that Gypsies could be in receipt of
grant aid or loans from the housing corporation so they could
build their own sites.
Q106 Mr O'Brien: They need planning
permission first, do they not?
Mr Smith: At that time we were
asking for a Gypsy Site Commission to be set up and for the whole
country to be regionalised so that the district councils could
assist in the identification of land for Gypsies who did want
to move onto the site and to find land to buy and purchase for
the development of Gypsy caravan sites themselves. It would be
a mix of sites. We are not looking for local authority sites.
I am quite sure that many Gypsies are not looking for private
sites anyway because it is quite possible they would not be allowed
on[1].
Q107 Mr O'Brien: The local authority
is responsible for planning and planning decisions. That is the
point I was making. If it is not statutory and the local authority
says, "Sorry, we can't help", what happens then?
Mr Smith: Again, I think we have
to go back to the old greenbelt situation. There were sites in
this country, when it was the local authority responsibility to
provide sites, when the Department of the Environment at that
time advised local authorities to be sympathetic
Q108 Mr O'Brien: It was statutory
then. Local authorities had a responsibility then and that was
changed. You are saying, "We don't want to go back to that
situation, but we need to have cooperation with the systems".
How are we going to change the system?
Mr Smith: Again, I think that
is open to discussion.
Q109 Mr O'Brien: That is what we
are here for today actually.
Mr Smith: It is alright theorising
about a situation. In some parts of this country, we are in the
hands of what we call the "armchair theorists" who can
sit back and decide what happens without discussing it with us.
Q110 Mr O'Brien: We are not working
on theories.
Mr Smith: You are asking me to
sit here now and tell you the best way forward. I am telling you
the best way forward because as a bred and born Gypsy—
Q111 Mr O'Brien: Repeat it for me.
The best way forward, is what?
Mr Smith: The best way forward
is a joint effort between the local authorities and the Gypsy
people.
Q112 Mr O'Brien: But if that is not
statutory how do we make local authorities conform or work with
you?
Mr Smith: Let me tell you what
happened prior to the 1960 Caravan Sites and Control of Development
Act in this country. That was the Act which caused all the problems
for the Gypsies, the settled community and the local authorities.
Gypsy people, prior to 1960, camped on their own plots of land.
They were camped in the back of farms or public houses, and nobody
ever saw them. We were not visible in those days. The legislation
which made us visible was the 1960 Caravan Sites and Control of
Development Act. That was the Act which put us all on the road
and the highway. At that time there were plenty of local authority
sites open around this country, because local authorities saw
them as commercial ventures. They could open caravan sites and
Gypsies could live on them.
Q113 Mr O'Brien: Where should sites
be located? When you were camping behind pubs and all the rest
of it—
Mr Smith: Not only behind pubs—Gypsies
owned their own plots of land in every part of this country. They
could rent land from farmers, prior to the 1960 Caravan Sites
and Control of Development Act. That was the legislation which
forced Gypsies onto the highway.
Q114 Mr Clelland: What about the
management of sites? How should sites be managed, and who do you
think is best placed to manage them?
Mr Smith: That is a matter for
the local authority. We manage 21 at the present time and they
are all successful. They are all being managed successfully. We
have a waiting list on all our sites. All our sites are full.
We say "our sites"—they are local authority sites
but they are either leased to us or under licence.
Q115 Mr Clelland: If we were to have
a national model for the management of these sites, what would
you say that would be?
Mr Smith: Again, I would think
private sites are the best managed sites. I think that is well
recognised. On the other hand, in some instances where local authorities
do not want to manage the sites once built, you can contact anyone
to manage the sites; there are plenty of contractors out there
who are willing to take that on.
Q116 Mr Clelland: What is your view
about the best way of managing sites?
Mr Smith: We think ours is. Ours
is what we call a "firm but fair management policy".
In our submission we actually sent a copy of the licence agreement
we have with the tenants. They have to abide by certain rules.
I think there are a lot of people talking here about tenancy agreements—that
Gypsies should perhaps have tenancy agreements. I think in the
main if you ask the run-of-the-mill Gypsy he is not too bothered
about a tenancy agreement. All he is bothered about is being able
to live on a caravan site, get his children a good state school
education and, at the same time, be able to live in peace and
harmony with his neighbours.
Q117 Chairman: You sent us this model
agreement, what happens on your sites if people break that agreement?
Mr Smith: We give them notice
to quit.
Q118 Chairman: Do you actually evict
individuals from your sites?
Mr Smith: Yes, but we have only
evicted about five or six people in all the years we have had
them and, unfortunately, that was down in Wales. It is very interesting—in
every part of this country where we manage caravan sites we do
not have to evict anyone. The only places where we have ever evicted
anybody was in a caravan site in Wales down in Swansea.
Q119 Mr Cummings: Do you work in
partnership with your tenants? Do you allow them to participate
in the management and development of the site? Do you have tenant
liaison groups?
Mr Smith: Chester City Council
had a caravan site in the early 1970s which they built and it
got vandalised.
1 I was in fact making a reference here to existing
private sites, which are either small, family-orientated sites
(with limited planning permission) or which operate selection
policies which mean that the types of families to whom I was referring
in that remark would not be allowed to take up residence on those
sites. Back
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