Examination of Witnesses (Questions 259
- 279)
TUESDAY 13 JULY 2004
CHIEF CONSTABLE
ALASTAIR MCWHIRTER,
QPM MA
Q259 Chairman: Good morning Mr McWhirter
and welcome to the Committee. Could I ask you first of all to
identify yourself for the record, please?
Mr McWhirter: I
am Alistair McWhirter, Chief Constable of Suffolk and representative
of ACPO.
Q260 Chairman: Do you want to say
anything by way of introduction or are you happy for us to go
straight to questions?
Mr McWhirter: I would like to
say that I represent ACPO on its Public Order Sub-Committee and
speak also on behalf of rural policing issues on behalf of ACPO.
Q261 Chris Mole: Good morning Chief
Constable. In your submission you have said that "the police
experience is that there are insufficient sites to meet demand".
Do you believe that the Government should reintroduce a statutory
duty on local authorities to provide sites for Gypsies and Travellers?
Mr McWhirter: I am not sure that
it is a matter for the police to comment on, to be quite honest.
What I can tell you is that it would make a great difference to
us to have more sites because we feel that the number of sites
does not meet the demand for them and therefore the police, along
with local authorities, are constantly put in a situation where
they have to deal with people who have nowhere to stay. Essentially
what we are doing is moving on homeless people from one place
to another, very often not knowing where those people are going
to or alternatively knowing that they will merely move half a
mile down the road to another site which may be worse than the
site they are on.
Q262 Chris Mole: In your submission
you have been critical of agencies working in separate silos.
Do you think there is a need for greater inter-agency cooperation?
Mr McWhirter: I think there is
a significant need for greater inter-agency cooperation. If I
can I would like to commend the ODPM and the Home Office on the
latest guidance because I think the guidance goes a long way to
helping us to develop that sort of partnership working at a local
level and for me the great strength of the document is that for
the first time it identifies a clear lead and it gives that clear
lead to local authorities which was not there before. With Section
61 and Section 77 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act
the police and local authorities were often squabbling between
themselves as to who had responsibility; we now have a clear lead.
That said, silos are still there because what happens in local
communities is that a group of Travellers moves in and takes over
a piece of land and then very often the police, the local authority
and the land owner will work together and will eventually move
the people off either by using the criminal law or civil law;
they will be moved off, they will leave the district council area
and everyone will breathe a great sigh of relief because they
have gone. Somebody will pay for the clearing up and so on but
nobody ever takes the responsibility for passing on the information
about who are the people who are actually causing damage, who
are the people who are ripping off members of the public by offering
to do work and then doing slip-shod work and not sharing that
information with other agencies. What happens is that no intelligence
follows on from group to group and I believe very strongly—and
ACPO believes very strongly—that we should now overcome
that barrier and for the first time try to share information across
the country, but we feel that it needs government will for that
to happen because it will need to bring together more agencies
to work together in law enforcement for a very long time.
Q263 Chris Mole: You have touched
on the national need and the information system which I think
we are going to return to in a moment, but we have also been told
that there is a need for a regional dimension in terms of over-viewing
the appropriate location for sites. Is that something you would
agree with?
Mr McWhirter: I would agree that
that would be very helpful. Again I do not think it is a matter
for the police to comment specifically on sites but it would help
us to do our work to have somebody who had a clear picture of
what the need and the demand was. I find myself in the situation
in Suffolk where we are in an oasis, surrounded by counties which
have large influxes of Gypsies and Travellers and Suffolk has
very few by comparison. There are routes and areas that constantly
have Gypsies and Travellers moving across those areas; there are
traditional areas and there are new routes because people tend
to go where work is and we see Travellers diversifying into all
sorts of new occupations. One of the things that has made a huge
difference is the introduction of the mobile telephone which has
resulted in many Travellers advertising businesses through Yellow
Pages and running what appear to be legitimate businesses in the
sense of having premises and so on, and Travellers then come and
do the work and they have none of the overheads that regular businesses
have including tax or national insurance or any of the safety
issues that other businesses have to pay.
Q264 Chairman: You were a bit reluctant
to comment about a statutory duty. Can I just press you a little
bit more about this question of a statutory duty?
Mr McWhirter: What I can say is
that when there was a statutory duty the problem was still there
but it was less of a problem than perhaps we have now.
Q265 Chairman: So far as the police
are concerned, if there was a statutory duty on local authorities
it might help.
Mr McWhirter: It might help, yes.
Q266 Christine Russell: Can I go
on to the issue of managing anti-social behaviour now? Would you
like to give us your comments on whether or not you feel the police
have sufficient powers to tackle anti-social behaviour that sometimes
sadly does occur between Travellers and local communities, rather
than within the travelling communities?
Mr McWhirter: Yes, we have sufficient
powers to deal with anti-social behaviour; we are not seeking
any additional powers. We were part of the discussion on the powers
that we have in the latest Act. I think it would help if there
were sites to move people on to. Going back to the anti-social
behaviour part of your question, the Government has given us perfectly
sufficient powers to deal with it. That does not mean that there
are not huge difficulties in dealing with it because I can honestly
say that I have never seen such racism in communities other than
when Travellers move into an area; there is a naked racism which
is not there with other minority ethnic groups who are even more
visible in many ways. The public reaction to Travellers can be
very much equated to the nineteenth century Punch cartoon where
a man is standing on the edge of a village with another man and
a villager from the next village is walking towards them and in
the caption underneath one man says to another: "Who's him,
Jim?" The other one says, "'E be a foreigner" and
the first one says, "We'll heave half a brick at him then".
That is still the attitude that communities have to strangers
moving in generally, we do not see it only with Gypsies and Travellers.
In my own county at the moment we have problems with Portuguese
families moving into rural communities and so on. We know from
the reaction we get when Travellers move into an area when we
will constantly get telephone calls saying that crime has gone
up and so on and very often the figures do not match that. Travellers
arriving in an area does not mean that there is going to be an
increase in crime; what it often means is a feeling of unease
in the local community and as a result tensions are raised particularly
if Travellers then go into a pub and take that pub over very often
in large numbers and you end up with conflict in the community.
Sometimes that is very difficult to deal with. One of your earlier
people giving evidence—the gentleman from Cottenham Residents
Association—said that the police will not go in unless they
are sure they are going to win. To a certain extent he is quite
right. We are very careful about going in there and sorting out
these problems because very often we have few police officers
initially to be able to deal with that and we have to build up
sufficient resources because there are usually fairly large numbers
of people involved. It can prove difficult to deal with and often
in mêlées and those kinds of disorders it is hard
to identify entirely who is to blame and how you can sort it out
other than by stopping the breach of the peace that has taken
place.
Q267 Christine Russell: So you are
really saying that it is an irrational fear of outsiders firstly
and then secondly police forces are reluctant to intervene unless
they have sufficient officers available.
Mr McWhirter: Yes.
Q268 Christine Russell: So the criticism
that you turn a blind eye is not true, but you do need to make
sure that you have sufficient resources on the ground.
Mr McWhirter: Yes. For all the
things that we deal with in terms of Travellers one has to have
sufficient resources. Frequently we are asked why we do not use
Section 61 more often. If you serve a notice under Section 61
to require someone to leave a site you actually have to have the
resources available once you have given the people a period of
notice to take all of the caravans into your possession and keep
them safely, you have to find homes for the people you are making
homeless and so on. You have to have a huge number of people involved,
it is not as easy as saying, "Okay, go off by 12 o'clock
tomorrow" and sending a police officer along to make sure
that that happens. It is not as simple as people think; it is
the logistics of actually making it happen that are very difficult.
Q269 Chairman: What you are telling
us actually is that if there is a sufficient number of Gypsies
on a site they can stop the police actually enforcing law and
order unless you have sufficient resources to do it.
Mr McWhirter: Yes, we have to
have sufficient resources and we will get sufficient resources
and we do get sufficient resources to do it. We have had tactics
adopted by the travelling community of moving in large numbers
and certainly a couple of years ago it was at its height when
we were getting groups of 150 caravans going round in large groups
descending on, for example, a large shopping centre car park,
taking over that car park completely at night and then dominating
that area for some days. As the guidance says, there are areas
where it will always be unacceptable for people to camp unlawfully
and we will take action and do that, but we have to then get the
resources together to do that and they are very expensive resources
to get together. You also then have to have an idea where those
150 caravans are going to go although it is unlikely that people
will actually allow us to seize them. So they will probably pull
off which is what happens very often; we get all the resources
together, we ready to do it and then they will pull away because
they do not want to lose their homes, who would? Then it becomes
a game of cat and mouse with people being followed and then they
settle on a piece of land. Eventually once they move out of that
district council area—and this is coming back to the silo
point—or indeed out of that force area it is no longer that
area's problem.
Q270 Chairman: You put the resources
in to move them on when there is a big group of them illegally
camped, but what about going into smaller sites for things like
failure to display tax discs and other relatively minor criminal
activities? Is it a temptation for police officers to think that
there are other things of a higher priority and so they get away
with a certain level of misdemeanours which would be pursued with
other members of the public?
Mr McWhirter: I think there is
a tactic that is used by some Travellers—and I would say
it is a small minority of Travellers—to make many of their
sites no-go areas for council officials, for police and for people
from any agency. I think there is a reluctance on the part of
some agencies to move into areas where there are Travellers' sites.
Police officers on the whole have no difficulty moving onto some
of the smaller Travellers' sites or indeed, the big ones; we do
not have no-go areas, we try not to create those sorts of areas
and we will go in and enforce the law. I can give you an example
of this from only last week in my own police area where we went
onto sites and arrested people early in the morning for offences
that had been committed. We do take action and we will not allow
no-go areas.
Q271 Mr Cummings: Do you believe
that the Gypsies and Traveller community could themselves do more
to eradicate anti-social and criminal behaviour from the community?
Mr McWhirter: I think that all
communities could do more to eradicate anti-social behaviour.
When I speak to Gypsy groups privately rather than at public meetings,
they will often say to me that they wish they could eradicate
some of the people who cause the most difficulties. There are
difficulties in a number of areas; it is not just anti-social
behaviour in its broader sense, sometimes it is family disputes
and domestic disputes which spill over into the wider community
and those can often cause significant problems where you have
a group on perhaps an authorised site and another group on
an unauthorised site and there are tensions between the two groups
locally.
Q272 Mr Cummings: Obviously you believe
that something positive can be done by the Gypsy and Traveller
community. Can you tell the Committee how you believe this can
be achieved and whether any progress has been made in that direction
in the past? Do you have any practical examples?
Mr McWhirter: I think the only
thing that can be done at a local level in terms of reducing anti-social
behaviour is to keep dialogue going right from the start. I think
the new guidance which has been issued is extremely helpful in
relation to giving good examples of how that dialogue can be first
of all made and then maintained. I think it comes down to having
good Gypsy and Traveller liaison officers; it comes down to having
named individuals in police forces.
Q273 Chairman: When you talk about
liaison officers, is that liaison officers within the police force
or within the local authority or both?
Mr McWhirter: In the local authority
but then having named police officers who are also liaison people
so that the local authority and the police are working together
as one. That is why I am pleased that the guidance—although
it has not get been formally launched in a broader sense—gives
clear plans as to how you can set up a local strategy and to work
that through. I think that if those areas that are affected by
Gypsies and Travellers moving in do have plans in place in relation
to that you will at least be able to start the process of being
able to create a dialogue with the Gypsy and Traveller community
to be able to help them to eradicate that sort of behaviour while
people are camping in their particular area. I think that is about
setting up agreements at a local level about what you will do
about rubbish, about behaviour generally and all those sorts of
things which is saying that if there is a period of toleration
then they will only be tolerated if they comply with these sets
of standards. I think the standards that are applied should be
the same standards that apply to the settled community; we are
not asking for more of Gypsies and Travellers than we are of the
settled community.
Q274 Mr Cummings: Gypsy and Traveller
groups have indicated to this Committee that all sites should
obviously have amenity blocks on each pitch, but your submission
indicates to the Committee that amenity blocks on transit sites
are frequently subject to extensive and criminal damage. Have
you any suggestions how this damage can be avoided? Is it a matter
of educating the Travellers themselves, alongside their rights,
to take the responsibilities that go with those rights in order
to protect what amenities are being provided for them?
Mr McWhirter: I believe that in
the design of any new site there needs to be consultation, as
you would with the settled community about the design of houses.
I think the transit sites should be designed in consultation
with the Gypsy and Traveller community. I think that is the only
way we are going to avoid the damage. I think you are going to
see a transit site tomorrow where there has been extensive damage
in the past. I used to police that area so I know about that particular
site. That is an area where there was a huge amount of money spent
on that particular site and then it was very seriously damaged.
Q275 Chairman: Was that because it
was badly designed?
Mr McWhirter: I do not know the
reason behind that and I do not think I can answer the question
fully. All I am saying is that I think that if you are going to
be successful in designing something you want people to use and
they feel is effective, then there needs to be consultation in
that process.
Q276 Chris Mole: You were touching
just now on the importance that ACPO see in having a cross-cutting
information system to record information about anti-social behaviour
or environmental damage. Can you explain how that might work and
would it be similar to the New Age Traveller monitoring system
of the 1980s and 1990s?
Mr McWhirter: Yes, I think it
would be similar to the New Age Traveller monitoring system of
the 1980s and 1990s because that was really the model that was
adopted then for dealing with unauthorised camping by New Age
Travellers at a time when they were going round in very large
groups and causing major disruption to the life of individual
communities. I would see this working in a similar way but slightly
differently. First of all I think there needs to be a national
database which is maintained and which can share information with
local authorities, with the police, with the Environment Agency
and with trading standards and, if it were thought appropriate,
also with the Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise. This has
to do with two aspects, one is environmental damage caused by
people who camp in an unauthorised way and then move on and leave
that damage and cause disruption to the life of the community.
The second aspect is to do with issues around the avoidance of
duty, the avoidance of VAT and industrial processes which are
carried out by some Travellers, particularly in the West Midlands
area where there is a lot of wire stripping and burning going
on on these individual sites. There is a huge amount of turnover
in terms of money, little of which seems to attract any form of
tax or information and I do think there is a taxation opportunity
which has been missed here and I feel—although I have no
evidence to support this—that both Customs and Excise and
Trading Standards are not as involved as they should be with Gypsies
and Travellers.
Q277 Chris Mole: Whilst I am sure
the Chancellor would welcome the additional VAT income, is there
not a serious worry that people on this list are never going to
get on a proper site and are going to be permanently camped illegally
as a result?
Mr McWhirter: I think that what
we are talking about is people who are camping in an unauthorised
way rather than people coming onto an authorised site, although
I can see the point you are making. We still have significant
numbers every night camping in an unauthorised way and it is about
somebody arriving in an area and it being found that when they
were on their last site or last site but one, they caused £10,000
worth of damage. I think that as a local authority and as a police
force you have a right then to say, "If you come and camp
in this area then these are the strict rules that we are going
to apply to you or you are not going to be allowed to stop in
this area or on this particular site". I know that has the
potential for difficulties; I know that it has also the potential
for breaching people's human rights and that one would have to
manage this in a very effective way which complied with both the
Data Protection Act and also allow Travellers to access the data
that was being held on them because they are the data subjects
after all. This is not criminal intelligence in its broadest way
but I feel it would encourage people who are abusing the system
and living above the law at the present time to actually take
their responsibilities and comply with the law.
Q278 Chris Mole: So ACPO have acknowledged
those civil liberties questions.
Mr McWhirter: Yes.
Q279 Chris Mole: What could you then
do to reassure people that it would be used to trace offenders
and not—as some Gypsies and Travellers might be concerned—an
index of all of them?
Mr McWhirter: The last thing I
would want would be for it to be an index of Gypsies and Travellers.
That would be wholly wrong and I do not think it should even be
an index of those who camp in an unauthorised way—although
that is unlawful—because I think that in itself would be
one step too far in terms of a draconian approach. What I think
it should do is to identify and deal quite properly with the minority
of people who give Gypsies and Travellers a bad name and who do
use their ability to move round the country to avoid their responsibilities
to the local communities.
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