Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
14 JUNE 2004
MRS MARGARET
FORD AND
MR DAVID
HIGGINS
Q60 Andrew Bennett: That means that the
people on the lowest incomes are the ones that are going to have
to pay for this.
Mrs Ford: I do not necessarily
think that follows; but actually people on the lowest incomes
cannot afford houses in London, so I do not think that is the
solution either.
Mr Higgins: To finish the question
on spatial development, the need for infrastructure is accelerated
because of the acceleration of housing requirements and plans,
particularly in the Thames Gateway and the growth areas; and so
Cabinet Committee MISC 22 has been set to specifically address
that issue, and it has been in place for over a year. There is
additional funding that has been allocated in both the major growth
areas by our department to look at those areas. Those are two
examples of it, in addition to the expenditure that is covered
by the Department of Transport, rail and various other departments.
We are also looking at the whole issue of value capture. There
is significant land increase in many of these growth areas, and
we are looking at how the public sector can capture some of that
value increase to pay for particularly social infrastructure and
some physical infrastructure such as schools and housing. Examples
of that, where we have become involved, are in Barking. The Barking
Reach site sat for decades really with low levels of development
and some chronic issues of infrastructure from public transport
to schools in particular, and some motorway access; so we are
now there as a 50% joint venture partner with Bellway. We are
obviously working with the Government on that issue. In Milton
Keynes we have set up a special-purpose committee in partnership
with the local authority, which will look at long-term investment
and infrastructure, and how that is funded and financed both by
the public sector but also from the significant land increase
that the 22 major land-owners in the growth area of Milton Keynes
will benefit from.
Q61 Andrew Bennett: Before taking you
on to new towns, there is this question about the Pathfinders
in the market renewal areas. Presumably, you will have people
on their steering committees and boards, but what else are you
doing for these Pathfinders?
Mr Higgins: Obviously, there is
a large funding allocation from the Department, and we are not
looking to undermine or replace that in any way. In the last 12
months there has been early intervention because what happens
in a number of these areas is that speculators move in and frustrate
the plans of the Pathfinders and the local authorities. We have
worked in particular with the local authorities to target areas
where they think they are open to some key early interventions
in areas of market failure; so we have obviously worked with a
number of the boards that are set up.
Q62 Andrew Bennett: You have bought some
land or bought some houses in these areas.
Mr Higgins: We have funded councils
that have bought houses in some of those areas, yes.
Q63 Andrew Bennett: Do you still see
the new towns as a core part of your activity?
Mrs Ford: Yes, we absolutely do.
Following the last select committee, I spent three or four months
making sure that I had visited every single one of the 21 English
new towns. We had a very clear signal to the leaders of those
councils and to the chief executives that we were going to attempt
to do business in a very different way. At the same time, we worked
with ODPM to change the policy around ownership of some of the
assets in new towns, as you know from the adjournment debate the
following February, when Tony McNulty announced that change. The
result has been now that we have been able for the first time
in many years to have a clear, quite unequivocal investment programme
in a number of the new towns. If you look at the revival of the
master plan for Bracknell, the work in Stevenage town centre,
the work in Peterborough on the south bank, the work in Woodside
and Telford, the work in the Castlefields estate in Runcorn—right
across the piece there has been a huge change in terms of the
way our organisation is able to re-invest back in the new towns.
The relationships have changed out of all recognition. We have
invested more in the last year in the new towns than probably
in the previous five years put together.
Q64 Andrew Bennett: Can you give us a
list?
Mrs Ford: Absolutely. We would
be very pleased to send the Committee that.
Q65 Andrew Bennett: How much has resulted
in transfers of property from yourselves to them?
Mrs Ford: We have put in place
a new team in our organisation called Asset Transfer, and we set
that up straight after the last select committee. The Asset Transfer
Team has worked with each new town local authority to agree with
them which of the assets which ODPM permit us to transfer that
they would like to take, and in what timescale. I have to say
to you that the first of those asset transfer plans was put to
the Treasury exactly one year ago, and I am still waiting for
a reply.
Q66 Andrew Bennett: It would be helpful
if you could let us have a note about that. You have put one to
the Treasury and it has taken them 12 months.
Mrs Ford: I have no reply to date.
Q67 Andrew Bennett: How many more have
gone to the Treasury?
Mrs Ford: I could not tell you,
but I will find out and write to you.
Q68 Andrew Bennett: It might be useful
if we could have a list, and then we could find out from the Treasury
why it has taken them so long.
Mrs Ford: I would like to know
that too, because it would be enormously helpful to have clarity
over the rules of the game for asset transfer, because we are
simply waiting now to do it.
Q69 Andrew Bennett: That is a polite
way of expressing disgust at the Treasury's performance.
Mrs Ford: No, we are just simply
waiting on the guidance.
Q70 Andrew Bennett: On a very minor point,
there were a lot of problems with footpaths that new towns built
over. Have you got that sorted out now?
Mrs Ford: I am going to hand over
to my expert in footpaths!
Mr Higgins: We have worked to
build new footpaths, certainly in Milton Keynes, and where we
are creating new communities such as Greenwich we have created
new footpaths there as well. We have done everything that we can
within our control, our lands that we have any authority over,
to create new footpaths.
Q71 Andrew Bennett: When the new towns
were built, you build over a lot of public rights of way, did
you not?
Mr Higgins: I have tried following
that up in the last few days, trying to get the background, but
I have found it difficult to find out where that has happened.
Q72 Andrew Bennett: The only example
I have in front of me is Cwmbran 1953. A note would be useful
on that.
Mr Higgins: You are better briefed
than me on that; I could not find that particular example.
Q73 Mr O'Brien: On coalfield communities,
the regeneration programme has been extended, but it is due to
be completed by 2012. Do you really think it will be completed
in that time?
Mr Higgins: Certainly the 86 sites—we
extended from the 57 original sites to the 86—we are confident
that those should be completed. We have expanded from the 86 sites
to further sites, to make a total of 100 now; and we are looking
at further flexibility on the National Coalfields Programme and
we are working with our partners in the Coalfields Community Programme.
We are also looking at additional flexibility within the Coalfields
Programme on sites adjacent to that. On the 86 sites, yes.
Q74 Mr O'Brien: The Government has ring-fenced
money for this regeneration.
Mr Higgins: That is right.
Q75 Mr O'Brien: How will the continuing
programme be resourced?
Mr Higgins: There is the ring-fenced
money, and then there are receipts coming in from the programme.
Those receipts have allowed us to get Department approval to expand
the programme from the original sites and to expand the flexibility
on where it can be applied within the individual programme. The
simple answer is that increasing land value and the prudent use
of new uses of existing sites has brought new revenue in.
Mrs Ford: One of the great successes
is that on many of the sites the anticipated capital receipt has
now been greatly exceeded because of the work that has been done,
so that is great news because it puts more into the pot for recycling
into other areas.
Q76 Mr O'Brien: How do local authorities
feature in identifying sites?
Mr Higgins: They are actively
involved. Some of them own the sites, so it is a combination.
The majority are owned by the regional development agencies, and
some by ourselves. In particular cases we have purchased from
the local authorities, but they are always involved in the new
planning.
Q77 Mr O'Brien: You are saying that the
local authorities are fully involved with identifying the sites
for the programme in their area.
Mr Higgins: In terms of new sites,
yes. There are particular cases which would not be in the mainstream
programme for the coalfields: in Durham, for example, we are working
with five local authorities in the Durham coalfields; Selby; and
then Meden Valley, where we have three local authorities.
Q78 Christine Russell: When we were doing
our inquiry into the coalfields communities, we were told that
you were working with ODPM to prepare a housing strategy. Is that
right? If it is, how is that being progressed?
Mrs Ford: The two examples that
David has given of the Durham coalfield and Meden Valley are exactly
what we were getting at there. It was evident when we started
to look at some of the areas that some of the housing issues were
more pressing than even some of the economic development issues.
ODPM have been very encouraging of us to go out and try different
things and different models, which is precisely what we have done
in the Meden Valley, which is now moving well. By looking at the
five different settlements in the Durham coalfield we can get
a critical mass of interest from developers to come in and work
across the piece there. That is the kind of flexibility that we
would not have had at the start of the Coalfields Programme because
what we were doing was quite ring-fenced, but we have had much
more flexibility, as Jeff Rooker announced last year, that has
allowed us to do that. Maybe calling it a "housing strategy"
is a wee bit grand, but we are certainly doing a number of housing
initiatives and trying different models to see what we can do
around some of the housing problems.
Q79 Christine Russell: Who is doing the
consulting with local people? When we went to some of the former
mining villages we were given lots of evidence from local people
of how vacant properties were being bought up by absentee landlords
who were importing undesirable tenants to the area.
Mrs Ford: Absolutely. In the case
of the Durham coalfield, we are leading in that; and in the case
of the Meden Valley, we did it jointly with the East Midlands
Development Agency—but always with the Coalfields Community
Campaign, and closely linked to it.
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