Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
Mr David Normington, Mr Peter Wanless, Mr David Bell,
examined.
Q60 Mr Gibb: I am not interested in whether
it was a Tory or a Labour Government, what I care about is what
has been going on in our schools 10 years ago that was so bad
and let us make sure that it is still not happening now, what
caused this very bad literacy level. 23% of adults cannot read
properly, they cannot read the side of a bottle to determine the
correct amount of medicine to give a child from the information
provided on the package. 23% are innumerate, which means the lowest
numeracy level of an individual means they may be unable to add
two and 50 together, 23% of adult cannot add two and 50 together
in this country, it is worse than the States, New Zealand, Australia,
Germany, the Netherlands, it is worse than Sweden where 7% have
this problem, why is it so much worse in this country?
Mr Normington: We can only conclude
that the quality of the education system which those young adults
went through did not give them the basic skills.
Q61 Mr Gibb: Why? What was going wrong?
Mr Normington: Presumably the
quality of the education they were getting and the quality of
teaching they were getting was not good enough at that time. We
have to improve that.
Q62 Mr Gibb: What were the policy areas
that were wrong?
Mr Normington: Well—
Q63 Mr Gibb: Why do you not know this?
How can we put it right? If all you can say is "things were
not good enough", you should have specific answers as to
why. Was it the type of reading methods we used, the configuration
of the classroom, was it the mixed ability of teaching, which
of those things is it?
Mr Normington: There were a whole
range of things that were happening at that time, one was that
we did not know anything about the performance of schools because
we did not have the data to analyse it. Secondly, we did not have
a national curriculum therefore we did not have any standard against
which to measure the performance of children. We did not care
about or invest in the leadership of schools. In fact we assumed
that if somebody was a good teacher they could become a good leader.
We did not have a curriculum for teachers, we did not have a standard
for training teachers. All of those things we are now putting
right.
Q64 Mr Gibb: Given only 75% of children
are leaving primary school and going into secondary school with
an acceptable level of level four in reading that means that 25%
are not, why do you think that 23% is going to improve?
Mr Normington: Because it was
57% in 1996 therefore we have 18% more children who have level
four. That is why we can have hope we are improving the situation
but we have to carry that through into secondary schools. I do
not believe that having 25% not achieving level four is good enough.
Q65 Mr Gibb: It has stalled.
Mr Normington: For the moment,
yes.
Q66 Mr Gibb: What proportion of maths
lessons are set in secondary schools?
Mr Normington: I would have to
look that up. I know there has been a PQ that gives us information
about that, I think it is over half.
Q67 Mr Gibb: It is 80%.
Mr Normington: Science and maths.
Q68 Mr Gibb: I am staggered by your lack
of knowledge. Why is it good to have 80% of lessons of maths setted?
Mr Normington: There is some evidence
that maths is the sort of subject you should teach in sets because
it is easier to teach people when they are banded by ability in
maths.
Q69 Mr Gibb: Do you think that applies
to other subjects?
Mr Normington: I do not think
we have evidence to prove that but it is widely believed in the
system that you should do it in science and quite a lot of schools
do it in English.
Q70 Mr Gibb: What proportion does it
in English?
Mr Normington: I will have to
look it up.
Q71 Mr Gibb: You should know these figures,
they are not obscure figures, and they are directly what are happening
in our schools. I am not asking for the specific schools, I am
asking for aggregate figures that David Bell has, and you should
have them.
Mr Normington: We have answered
a PQ which has given you all these figures, it will take me two
or three minutes to look them up.
Q72 Mr Gibb: I do not have the time.
Mr Normington: I know that.
Q73 Mr Gibb: You knew I was on this panel.
45% of lessons in English are setted given you think the setting
is valuable why are only 45% in English setted whereas 90% are
setted in maths?
Mr Normington: The Department
does not issue strong guidance about setting. It leaves it to
the judgment of schools in particular circumstances.
Q74 Mr Gibb: How is it that you have
all of these targets to achieve these rises in GCSE results? If
you say that it is up to the school to determine these things
how can you give those targets to achieve improvements?
Mr Normington: I spend all of
my time being told that we are telling the schools too much. Leaving
the schools some discretion to decide what is the best method
of teaching their children is probably desirable.
Q75 Mr Gibb: What are you telling them
to do?
Mr Normington: We are giving them
a great deal of guidance about how they should teach the curriculum,
we are training teachers, particularly at Key Stage 3, we are
training headteachers better and we are actually spreading best
practice about how to teach literacy and numeracy and some other
subjects. We are doing all of those things.
Q76 Mr Gibb: It is all failing.
Mr Normington: Of course it is
not.
Q77 Mr Gibb: You are not going to achieve
the GCSE English targets?
Mr Normington: Both literacy and
numeracy in primary schools have very significantly improved.
It is true that it has not improved in the last couple of years
but it has very significantly improved over the last ten. There
has been steady improvement in secondary education at every stage,
Key Stage 3, GCSE and A-level. It is not yet good enough but there
is steady improvement and the sort of improvement that ten years
ago we did not have.
Mr Gibb: My time is up. I am going to
come back at the end, so you will have time to look up all of
these figures.
Chairman: There is motion for Mr Gibb
to join the Education Committee, we may be losing his services,
if we lose his services may I thank him for his sterling work
on behalf of the Committee.
Q78 Mr Bacon: Mr Normington, what is
the budget for schools in England?
Mr Normington: It is about 27
billion, it is 25 billion spent through the local authorities
and there are a number of other pots which I can go through.
Q79 Mr Bacon: 25 billion.
Mr Normington: 25 billion through
LEAs, 1.5 billion which is spent on sixth forms by the Learning
and Skills Council, 1.5 through the Standards Fund and—
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