Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
Mr David Normington, Mr Peter Wanless, Mr David Bell,
examined.
Q100 Mr Bacon: Was that paid from the
Department directly to the school?
Mr Normington: Yes. Actually for
accounting reasons it goes to the local authority.
Q101 Mr Bacon: It is purely passed through?
Mr Normington: It is purely passed
through, yes, and that is still there.
Q102 Mr Bacon: Have you done any work
on possibly paying all the money directly to the school?
Mr Normington: No, although there
is a great debate about the place about what the best method of
funding is, we have not.
Q103 Mr Bacon: You have not done any
work on it?
Mr Normington: We have not done
any. Sorry, we have looked at all kinds of practices.
Q104 Mr Bacon: I asked the Secretary
of State about this in Question Time and whether he would consider
it and he said he was not going to consider it yet.
Mr Normington: I was wondering
whether to use the word "yet". We have been concentrating
hard on how to make the present system work better as we have
to do for the next two years. I think that is probably what the
Secretary of State meant about yet. We may want to think further
about beyond the next two years but we have not done so yet.
Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr Bacon.
Your last questioner in this first part of the session is Mr Brian
Jenkins.
Q105 Mr Jenkins: Finally, Mr Normington,
when you read the Report were you surprised by anything in the
Report or was it what you expected?
Mr Normington: Broadly it gave
the picture that we expected. I think there was nothing very surprising
in it. It confirmed what we knew already.
Q106 Mr Jenkins: There was nothing to
learn from the Report as far as methods to change anything?
Mr Normington: This was the first
time, as has been said by the NAO, that they had done that sophistication
of analysis. I think we are very interested in that. I am not
sure one wants to have 12 different factors for adjustment but
actually we are very interested in how you make sure this is proper
data so I think that has been very useful. Some of the other material
about comparing different sorts of schools really confirms the
analysis we have done.
Q107 Mr Jenkins: It is exactly what I
would expect. A lot of these results are what I would have got
if I had gone to the school and talked to one or two members of
staff. If I had talked to head teachers they would have given
me exactly the same figures and output and it was that reliance
on experience and opinion rather than hard figures that we had
a problem with in the past. When we started pulling figures in
to the results we had a problem with results. What we understand
is that if we had three subjects—I think we have English,
maths and science—and if a school was doing about 65% in
maths, 65% in English and 55% in science and you went along and
looked at the science teaching and you thought "that is fair
enough, that is good enough, it should be 65%", quite simply
you would say that grade is now 65% and you would alter the figures
to make sure that the child should be doing 65% in all three subjects,
should they not? I would expect a large jump in 2000 and 2001
from obviously 1996 not because of suddenly all the science teachers
and all the equipment and all the means of educating these youngsters
and suddenly their eyes kind of light up and say "We love
science" and there is a massive jump, it is because basically
we brought it into line, did we not?
Mr Normington: The data allows
you to analyse who is performing well and where to put your efforts.
Q108 Mr Jenkins: There is nothing wrong
with a yes. Is that a yes?
Mr Normington: Yes.
Q109 Mr Jenkins: Okay. All we are doing
is we are not doing anything other than establishing the standard
we would like the youngsters to achieve. That standard is what
we want them to achieve and it is where we set the standard, it
is simple as that.
Mr Normington: There are two things
here. There is the level we are trying to get every child to because
we know that is the standard they need in order to progress into
later life and be successful.
Q110 Mr Jenkins: Yes, I understand.
Mr Normington: Then we want as
many pupils as possible to reach that standard so we want to go
on raising the proportion of children getting to it.
Q111 Mr Jenkins: I have been doing this
for a few years now.
Mr Normington: Yes.
Q112 Mr Jenkins: So, Mr Bell, are we
failing more schools now this term on Ofsted inspections than
this time last year?
Mr Bell: We have got the data
for September and October this year and there has been a rise
of about a third in the number of schools getting special measures,
i.e. failing schools.
Q113 Mr Jenkins: How many?
Mr Bell: About a third.
Q114 Mr Jenkins: A third, how can this
be so? We have the book, the good book, we know what good teaching
is, we know what the National Curriculum is, we know what good
leadership is, we have all the things in place, how can we have
an increase in a third of schools with special needs?
Mr Bell: I think that is a very
good question.
Q115 Mr Jenkins: I would like a good
answer.
Mr Bell: We have been doing inspections
for ten years. You are absolutely right, we have got a better
understanding than we have ever had about those factors which
make a difference. When I analyse the inspection reports of schools
that have gone into special measures I do see some of those rather
familiar trends: poor leadership, poor quality teaching and so
on. It is very worrying, I agree, that after ten years, and after
that very strong focus on the accountability of schools, we have
not got all schools yet up to a level that will allow us to say
everyone has reached the mark.
Q116 Mr Jenkins: Mr Normington, what
will you do about that?
Mr Normington: We are going to
go on trying to improve those schools. If you get into special
measures then a whole set of measures to improve the position
kick in, including the school having to produce a plan for recovery.
We just need to go on trying to do that. It is very disappointing.
This new framework has only been in place a few weeks but it is
disappointing.
Q117 Mr Jenkins: According to the inspectorate
our schools this year are now worse than they were last year?
Mr Bell: No. I think it is important
to say that we have had a new inspection framework introduced
since September.
Q118 Mr Jenkins: Thank you very much.
Mr Bell: That has put a stronger
and sharper focus on the key elements of success within a school,
the quality of leadership and management, the quality of teaching,
the progress made by groups of pupils and it is absolutely right
that we should do that. One of the things that we have learned
over the past 10 years is what makes a school most effective.
Therefore the new framework, if we sharpen the criteria on those
elements, is right because that is what makes schools successful.
It may mean that some schools are not as successful then with
that sharp a criterion.
Q119 Mr Jenkins: Let me tell you something.
I remember the sea change when you lot came in, Ofsted came in
because before then school inspectors went around schools, watched
and observed teaching, they used to know the teachers they could
rely on and if they did have a problem in a school they would
not hesitate for one moment to go back and track you down and
say "When you did this, you had a good programme, can I borrow
it, I want to take it somewhere else". They used to transfer
good teaching practice and transfer good ideas and drive up the
old sector. When Ofsted came in, Ofsted criteria were laid down
in tablets of stone by one person who will remain nameless. They
came in to criticise, they offered not one word of comfort, not
one word of support, they offered not one word of advice, they
just came in to prove they could inspect and criticise and destroy
the morale of almost a generation in teaching.
Mr Bell: It is worth remembering
that prior to the introduction of the Ofsted arrangements parents
actually had no independence and overview of what was going on
in those schools because the number of inspectors around meant
that the average primary school might be inspected once every
200 years. It seems to me that what we have now is a system whereby
parents have an independent account on the quality of education
in their schools. I want to challenge the point that somehow it
is all to do with criticising schools. You only have to read the
press, the local press, up and down the country, you only have
to read annual reports and you see school after school being highlighted
for the quality of its work. It is right we do that but it is
also right that we do regular inspection which enables parents
to have more information to enable them to make a choice about
where they should send their child to school.
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