Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140-152)
Mr David Normington, Mr Peter Wanless, Mr David Bell,
examined.
Q140 Mr Williams: The second thing I
would ask for, if I can find it, yes, the information you have
provided in 2.10 about the bottom 20%, can you give us the equivalent
reverse information of the top 20% so we can see how many of those
should have been there?
Mrs Hands: I understand.[4]
Mr Burr: Yes.
Mr Williams: These are not questions,
Chairman, they are just requesting information.
Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr Williams.
Mr Bacon?
Q141 Mr Bacon: Very quickly. Mr Normington,
you said you hope to move from 72 streams of funding down to five.
How long will that take?
Mr Normington: I do not know.
I cannot promise you a period in which that is going to happen.
We are on the case now and we are reducing the number of funding
streams. I still do not really think it should be 72.
Q142 Mr Bacon: Does it worry you that
schools applying for specialist status, sometimes extremely good
schools, invest a huge amount of money and time and then fail
right at the end when they find the goalposts have moved slightly
and then they fail a second time or a third time or a fourth time?
Mr Normington: It would worry
me if schools were failing because they had not understood where
the pass mark was.
Q143 Mr Bacon: The goalposts kept moving.
Mr Normington: It would worry
me if they did not know that and if that had happened.
Q144 Mr Bacon: Why do they keep moving
slightly?
Mr Wanless: Each adjustment has
been in order to simplify the application process to make it easier
for schools, and for much the sort of reasons that you are suggesting
in the line of questioning. The specialist school trust is there
to help applicants ensure that they understand the process.
Q145 Mr Bacon: Mr Normington, we talked
about schools being eight times oversubscribed. Can you say what
you think normally happens when something is oversubscribed?
Mr Wanless: Do you mean when lots
of parents do not get their children in?
Q146 Mr Bacon: Yes, I am talking about
in the abstract, what happens normally when demand for something
rises?
Mr Normington: There is greater
competition for those places. I am sorry, I am not quite sure
what you are asking.
Q147 Mr Bacon: The point I am making
is about demand and supply. When demand for something goes up
and something is oversubscribed the supply disappears. If everyone
wants to buy one record it ends up as number one in the charts.
What is so strange about education is that if the demand for some
particular thing rises, at least to some extent one cannot develop
arrangements which enable the supply element to rise as well.
For example, more money to follow those pupils so the school builds
an extension and gets new classrooms because the demand has gone
up, why can that not happen?
Mr Normington: We have changed
the guidance to local organisation committees which take these
decisions to provide a greater possibility for schools that are
popular to expand and also to ensure that some money is available
to make that happen. But there are all kinds of reasons why in
a particular area it is not possible for that school to expand
first. It is not like a sort of consumer good which you can just
switch on because you have to have more classrooms, you have to
have more teachers, you have to have more facilities. Those things
are not just created overnight unless the school by some chance
has the ability to do that. Many of them do not because many of
them are in very constrained circumstances and would have to build.
Mr Bacon: I would like to keep going
but I have had a message from the Chairman.
Q148 Mr Jenkins: Mr Bell, you said in
a previous reply that in September you changed your inspection
regime resulting in a third more failures. Could you let us have
a note, please, on why you changed the regime, what you changed
it to, why you had this level of failures and what you will do
about it?
Mr Bell: Yes.[5]
Q149 Mr Jenkins: Mr Normington, you said
that free school meals are a good indicator—I am quoting
now—and the Working Families Tax Credit has taken many families
above the income level and it has taken free school dinners out
but they are still deprived. Also can you tell me why you feel
that the behaviour of school children now is not given greater
credence in a society that is getting more and more difficult
to place in all areas?
Mr Normington: We do not think
free school meals is a perfect measure for some of the reasons
you have described. We are looking for alternatives. Secondly,
I think it is a whole new subject, is it not, why behaviour in
society amongst children is declining but it seems to be.
Mr Williams: Can I draw your attention
to one extra thing which has emerged recently in the press analysis
of the housing boom. There it is pointed out there is such a thing
as school premium in terms of house prices in that people are
actually deliberately moving into catchment areas and, therefore,
inflating prices on the basis of the reputation of individual
schools and where those reputations are based on imbalanced statistics
you can see there is a social implication to this beyond the educational
factors we have been considering.
Q150 Chairman: That is a point, not a
question. I have one question to remain within my time. Why is
it that—I was referring to the complexity of funding streams,
Mr Normington—pupils in secondary schools in the Royal Borough
of Kensington and Chelsea receive £1,400 more in Kensington
and Chelsea than in Hammersmith and Fulham in secondary schools?
Mr Normington: That will be to
do with the range of factors in the formula which will be to do
with need.
Q151 Chairman: The need in Kensington
and Chelsea is greater?
Mr Normington: North Kensington
is a very deprived bit of London. We all have a picture of Kensington
and Chelsea but it is not all the bit around Harrods. I can provide
you with a note on that.[6]
Q152 Chairman: Please provide me with
a note.
Mr Normington: On why it happens.
It is how the formula allocates the money.
Chairman: All right. Gentlemen, thank
you very much for what has been a very interesting session. This
is the front line of party politics but we have tried to look
at the figures and derive some knowledge so we can base our own
opinions on that. We will attempt to produce a report which draws
some interesting conclusions, particularly on what we have heard
about external factors. Thank you very much.
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