Examination of Witness (Questions 160-179)
5 FEBRUARY 2004
PROFESSOR SIR
DAVID KING
FRS
Q160 Mr Prentice: Right. I did not fully
appreciate that. When we had Professor Blakemore in front of us
a couple of weeks ago, I reminded him that he was quoted in the
Sunday Times in December of last year as saying that the
award to Brian Cass, the CBE, "was clearly a political gesture.
Cass's name was probably added by the prime minister at the last
minute." Do you have a view on that?
Professor Sir David King: I think
it is simply not correct.
Q161 Mr Prentice: It is just incorrect.
Do you get copied the minutes of the science and technology committee,
so you know what is happening there?
Professor Sir David King: Do I
get copied this as chairman of my sift committee? No.
Q162 Mr Prentice: You will not tell us
if you are a member of the science and technology committee. We
have established that.
Professor Sir David King: That
was a trick question!
Q163 Mr Prentice: But what I want to
know is whether you, because of the job you have, I suppose, are
on the circulation list of . . . You are not?
Professor Sir David King: Let
me rephrase your question, if I may, in a form I can answer directly.
As chairman of the unofficial committee in the Office of Science
and Technology that does this initial sifting to help the science
and technology committeewhich is what we are doingno,
I do not receive minutes of that higher committee.
Q164 Mr Prentice: I ask you that because,
when we had Professor Blakemore in front of us and I was asking
him about the leak and he was saying it was a rough note and not
a considered minute, I pressed him on that and he told me about
the assurances he had been given by Lord Sainsbury and he went
on to say, "I had a long conversation also with Sir David
King, Chief Scientific Adviser, who again confirmed that what
appeared to be leaked minutes did not reflect Government opinion."
That is what led me to ask you a few moments ago whether you were
copied the minutes so that you could reassure Professor Blakemore
on their accuracy.
Professor Sir David King: The
precise nature of the reassurance I gave Professor Blakemore is
almost identical to the reassurance I gave you right at the beginning
of this, in terms of my approach to the animal rights extremists
who had harried Blakemore over that long period of time and my
views on whether or not his experiments involving vivisection
should count against him. I certainly believe they should not,
and I believe Lord Sainsbury gave exactly the same answer.
Q165 Chairman: Again, for completeness,
have we established that Blakemore's name came through your unofficial
committee, given the fact that all names come through your committee?
Professor Sir David King: Blakemore
is a member of the unofficial committee, so his name could not
have come through
Q166 Chairman: Could not have come through
that route?
Professor Sir David King: Yes.
Q167 Mr Trend: Just to help me be clear
in my own mind, the unofficial committee, is that the same committee
that was referred to earlier as the expert committee, or is the
expert committee the Science and Technology Committee?
Professor Sir David King: We have
the Office of Science and Technology Unofficial Sifting Committee,
as it has come to be known around this table, then we have the
Science and Technology Committee and then we have the committee
that looks at all of the honours.
Q168 Mr Trend: You referred to an expert
committee, or perhaps one of us did?
Professor Sir David King: The
Science and Technology Committee is the expert committee, and
that has three civil servants and six experts.
Q169 Mr Trend: Can you speculate on whether
there are more of these expert committees for other subject areas
across Whitehall?
Professor Sir David King: Yes.
Q170 Mr Trend: Do they all have unofficial
committees as well? Would you know?
Professor Sir David King: No,
I do not know, but I imagine so. I imagine there has to be a sifting,
and the siftinglet me just be clear in relation to the
earlier questionis done entirely within the Civil Service
without any interaction with the political system.
Q171 Mr Trend: Yes, I appreciate that.
You said that in this year's list you could, as it were, account
for all the names. On a longer perspective, are there occasions,
or have there been occasions when names of evidence in the science
have appeared on the final list that have not been considered
at all by the unofficial committee?
Professor Sir David King: Yes,
and those would largely be members of that unofficial committee.
Q172 Mr Trend: With those exceptions.
Are there sort of maverick scientists
Professor Sir David King: Maverick
scientists!
Q173 Mr Trend: or scientists who
perhaps just have caught the moment?
Professor Sir David King: I cannot
recall in the last three years an occasion.
Q174 Mr Trend: So, broadly speaking,
you are the gatekeepers fairly exclusively?
Professor Sir David King: Fairly
exclusively. I think what I did say was learned society's input,
Office of Science and Technology, Civil Service input; but we
also receive input from other government departments, again from
permanent secretaries in other government departments.
Q175 Mr Trend: The publicity around this
leak also concentrated on the question of the refused leaks. Is
it possible to say whether there have been people who have been
refused honours offered through this system in the field of science
and technology?
Professor Sir David King: I cannot
remember a single example in science and technology.
Q176 Mr Trend: Because it will be slightly
confusing if you put forward eight names and one did not come
up?
Professor Sir David King: However,
can I just follow that through by saying, but I probably would
not know.
Q177 Mr Trend: That was what worried
me, because if you proposed eight names and one did not come up
you perhaps would not know?
Professor Sir David King: I would
not know whether that was the higher committee turning the order
round.
Q178 Mr Trend: Without asking who is
on the Science and Technology Committee, has it ever happened
that either that committee or another committee higher up has
returned to you with further questions about individuals put forward
by the unofficial committee?
Professor Sir David King: So you
are asking me, as a member of the unofficial committee, whether
anyone from the higher committeeand the answer is absolutely
not. As a matter of fact, no; no communication with the member
of the higher committee whatsoever.
Q179 Mr Trend: I was thinking really
in terms of
Professor Sir David King: Unless
I did not know they were a member.
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