Examination of Witness (Questions 180-199)
5 FEBRUARY 2004
PROFESSOR SIR
DAVID KING
FRS
Q180 Mr Trend: All right; okay.
Professor Sir David King: And
I am being absolutely straight with you.
Q181 Mr Trend: We talked with Blakemore
about the populous, and we used the example of the English rugby
football team, something which was clearly popular, in which there
was a huge interest and, the country would agree, was richly deserved.
I was just wondering whether those sorts of things occurred in
science and technology. Perhaps they do not?
Professor Sir David King: I have
given you my example of the Foot and Mouth Disease Science Group
who helped me. I must say, I am a great fan of rugby. It is the
sport I follow and the English team is the team I support, so
I was absolutely delighted with that Honour's List.
Q182 Mr Trend: Can I tease you about
the Royal Society. Can you reveal if you are a Fellow of this
organisation?
Professor Sir David King: The
Fellowship of the Royal Society is a published list, Mr Chairman.
Q183 Mr Trend: We asked Colin Blakemore
about this and, as you know, the Science and Technology Committee
here was rather critical about the way in which Fellows were appointed
and that there was no attempt to give it a balanced, or there
appeared to be no mechanism whereby a more balanced, ethnic and
gender basis could be achieved; it was rather like a "golden
triangle" boys only club?
Professor Sir David King: The
Royal Society?
Q184 Mr Trend: Yes; and the Committee
here was critical about this. Is it that they use a completely
different system from the one which you used? You said you were
proud that your practice was to include a woman in your selection
process?
Professor Sir David King: The
Royal Society system is similar in some ways and inevitably is
different in others. I think there may be lessons that could be
learned for Government from the way the Royal Society operates,
both good and bad lessons perhaps. The Royal Society has a bunch
of sectional committeesI believe it is nine, but I am not
absolutely surenine sectional committees, covering all
areas of science, medicine, technology, etcetera, and each of
those sectional committees has a membership of around eight or
nine people who are drawn by the Royal Society as the academic
experts in their field, who again would be highly regarded by
the scientific community in their field, starting from mathematics,
physical sciences, etcetera[4]The
Royal Society has a procedure, which involves a box for each nomination
being developed in the Royal Society so that any members of that
Committee can pull down the box and look at the nomination of
a given member at any time at their leisure. That box is updated
for each member year on year and it contains the top 20 publications
of that nominee. So the process is subject to much greater scrutiny,
in the sense that the individual members of the sectional committee
can, if they so wish, put a lot more work into going through the
top nominations they wish to consider, but, in other respects,
I think, the process is rather similar, because at the end of
the day each sectional committee is only going to get two or three
Fellows through in a given year out of quite a long list that
they are considering. So it is highly selective, and the discussion
is not divulged at all.
Q185 Mr Trend: I understand that. So
it is a system done on merit and receives merit on peer group
preference, but its profile, the Royal Society's profile, is subtly
different, but importantly different, from the profile of people
who tend to be awarded state honours. There is a greater mix?
Professor Sir David King: Yes.
Q186 Mr Trend: Should these not be roughly
the same? Which system has got it right?
Professor Sir David King: I think
the Royal Society, as you just said, looks strictly at your contribution
to the discipline. It is the same as the American academies, or
other academies around the world. It is a group of scientists
who everyone would recognise as the top British scientists, and
it does not mix in this question of, for example, good citizenship.
Who has gone out of their career and made a real effort? So somebody
who has contributed to the foot and mouth disease epidemic, their
work in the epidemic might be evaluated as part of their contribution
to the science of epidemiology, but they would not rate for a
Fellowship of the Royal Society simply because they put that enormous
effort in. Therefore, I do think there is a proper difference
between the two.
Q187 Mr Trend: I will end here, if I
may, but what I am slightly working towards is a quota system,
on which we will all have our private views as to whether it is
desirable or not; but there is no doubt that the Government tries
to run some sort of quota system for the Honours List as a whole.
A Commons Committee on the Royal Society felt that the Royal Society
might look at that. It is the Royal Society's business, nobody
else's. Do you feel that to a certain extent you are helping that
quota system in the selections you put forward for the unofficial
committee?
Professor Sir David King: I have
never questioned that, but that is because I am only concerned
to see that the listing I put up is a good compromise.
Q188 Mr Trend: So it does not encourage
you every month then to say, "Come on, we need one of this
or one of that"?
Professor Sir David King: I think
I am quite well-known for having a good push for science and technology,
and so, if there has been a slight increase in the number of science
and technology people in the listing, that might just be because
I have been putting pressure in that direction, but perhaps that
is not surprising.
Q189 Kevin Brennan: If I was a scientist
and wanted get an honour, how would you advise me to go about
it?
Professor Sir David King: I would
say, first of all, get on and establish your career as a scientist,
and, secondly, if called upon to step outside your career and
serve the country, then do that as well.
Q190 Kevin Brennan: So definitely volunteer
for public duties, committees and foot and mouth crises, and things
like that, as well as your mundane day-to-day scientific
Professor Sir David King: Mundane!
Q191 Kevin Brennan: You need to do a
bit more than your day job
Professor Sir David King: Yes.
Q192 Kevin Brennan: basically,
to get on?
Professor Sir David King: Yes,
but doing your day job well, exceptionally well, will also carry
you through.
Q193 Kevin Brennan: Does it help to know
the right people, do you think? Would it be useful to make a few
contacts?
Professor Sir David King: Doing
your day job. Is that not what Wilkinson was doing when he drop-kicked
that . . . So I think I am not
Kevin Brennan: You see, I have a suspicion
that Wilkinson and the English rugby team got their honoursthat
would not have happened if it had been Wales or Scotland!
Chairman: He is a Welshman!
Q194 Kevin Brennan: I have a suspicion
it would not have happened so quickly.
Professor Sir David King: Well,
I hope we can test it.
Chairman: It rankles, I am afraid.
Q195 Kevin Brennan: I am afraid it is
going to be a long time before we are able to test it. On a serious
point, I think you are on this committee?
Professor Sir David King: You
think?
Q196 Kevin Brennan: I think you are on
this Science and Technology Committee. I know you cannot tell
us that you are, but I actually think that you are. So if I was
a scientist, you know, observing the empirical evidence in front
of me, I would probably want to make sure that if you came along
and said, "Would you like to help out on my foot and mouth
work?", and everything, and I was a scientist who would like
an honourseriously, you have said that people do appreciate
these things and value themI think I would probably want
to get to know you a bit?
Professor Sir David King: I am
going to take your question seriously.
Q197 Kevin Brennan: It has a serious
purpose!
Professor Sir David King: Yes.
I gave an example with the foot and mouth disease epidemic from
my own experience, and I am simply saying that those people are
examples of the sort of behaviourthey gave examples of
the sort of behaviour that I think it is right for a country to
honour, but it would be wrong if it was only the people who helped
the Chief Scientific Adviser, and so my sifting committee does
really try and look right across the board. I mean, obviously,
this depends on how fair I am as a Chairman, but I do not think
you are going to find complaints from the chief executives of
the Research Councils on that score.
Q198 Kevin Brennan: You see the serious
point of my question, which I am sure you realise, is, is this
not all a nonsense, this idea that you can keep secret the membership
of the Science and Technology Committee, when everyone knowsI
am surmising, not everyone knows and it is wrong to suggest thatwhen
I am suggesting that I believe, I have a strong belief that you
are a member of that Committee, and people in the scientific community
will presumably have a strong suspicion of who the other element
of people are who may well be members of that committee. You are
saying the reason why it is kept secret is so that you cannot
be lobbied, but if everyone knew who you were, you could say,
"If you do lobby me then you will not get an honour."
Professor Sir David King: Yes.
I mean, it is pure surmise that I am a member of that committee.
Q199 Kevin Brennan: Absolutely, yes.
Professor Sir David King: Pure
surmise.
4 Note by witness: The membership of The Royal
Society Sectional Committees is published. Back
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