FORMAL MINUTES
Wednesday 14 July 2004
Members Present:
Sir Archy Kirkwood, in the Chair
Ms Vera Baird
Miss Anne Begg
Ms Karen Buck
Mr Andrew Dismore
| Rob Marris
Andrew Selous
Mr Nigel Waterson
|
The Committee deliberated.
Draft Report [The work of the Health and Safety Commission and
Executive], brought up and read.
Ordered, That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph
by paragraph.
Paragraph 1 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 2 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 3 to 5 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 6 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 7 read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 8 to 11 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 12 to 15 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 16 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 17 to 19 read and agreed to.
A paragraph - (The Chairman) brought up, read the first
and second time, amended and inserted [now paragraph 20].
Paragraphs 20 and 21 (now paragraphs 21 and 22) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraph 22 (now paragraph 23) read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 23 and 24 (now paragraphs 24 and 25) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraph 25 (now paragraph 26) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 26 (now paragraph 27) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 27 to 29 (now paragraphs 28 to 30) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 30 (now paragraph 31) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 31 and 32 (now paragraphs 32 and 33) read and agreed
to.
A paragraph - (The Chairman) - brought up, read the first
and second time and inserted (now paragraph 34).
Paragraphs 33 to 38 (now paragraphs 35 to 40) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 39 (now paragraph 41) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 40 to 47 (now paragraphs 42 to 49) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 48 (now paragraph 50) read, amended and agreed to.
A paragraph - (The Chairman) - brought up, read the first
and second time and inserted (now paragraph 51)
Paragraph 49 (now paragraph 52) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 50 (now paragraph 53) read as follows:
HSC/E argued that some limited legislative changes are needed
- on higher fines, corporate killing and the removal of Crown
Immunity. The Department for Work and Pensions supports HSC in
promoting the case for higher fines, and is working with other
Departments to progress the Government's commitments to reform
the law on corporate killing and remove Crown Immunity for health
and safety offences. The Government has been committed to introducing
legislation on corporate killing for some time. On 20 May 2003,
the Government announced that it would publish a draft Bill.
While this was expected by the end of 2003, it has yet to be produced.
In oral evidence, Mr Gareth Williams of the Department for Work
and Pensions told us that the principle of introducing legislation
on corporate killing was agreed, although it was important to
ensure there was an effective means of applying it. The principle
about whether and how to apply it to the Crown had yet to be resolved.
The Home Secretary is hoping to publish a draft Bill before the
end of the session.
Amendments made.
An amendment proposed, at end to add the words:
The Committee is concerned at the length of time it is taking
the Government to resolve any outstanding issues concerning reforms
of the law on corporate killing and recommends that by 1 December
2004, the Government publishes a Bill on corporate killing. -
(Mr Andrew Dismore)
Question put that the amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 6
Ms Vera Baird
Miss Anne Begg
Ms Karen Buck
Mr Andrew Dismore
Rob Marris
Andrew Selous
| Noes, 1
Mr Nigel Waterson
|
Paragraph 51 (now paragraph 54) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 52 (now paragraph 55) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 53 to 55 (now paragraphs 56 to 58) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 56 to 58 (now paragraphs 59 to 61) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 59 to 62 (now paragraphs 62 to 65) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 63 (now paragraph 66) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 64 to 66 (now paragraphs 67 to 69) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 67 read, amended, divided and agreed to. (now paragraphs
71 and 72)
Paragraph 68 (now paragraph 73) read and agreed to.
A paragraph - (The Chairman) - brought up, read the first
and second time and inserted (now paragraph 74)
Paragraphs 69 to 73 (now paragraphs 75 to 78) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 74 (now paragraph 80) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 75 (now paragraph 81) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 76 (now paragraph 82) read as follows:
The Committee received some evidence that HSE could make better
use of the resources it has and such arguments need to be examined
carefully by HSC/E. However, the overwhelming view was that HSE
is a high quality organisation, constrained by inadequate resources
in its ability to adequately support core activities such as inspection,
which have a direct impact on its ability to ensure compliance.
We recommend that additional resource should be made available
over the next three years to increase the ability of HSC/E to
meet the targets set for it by central government.
An amendment made.
An Amendment proposed, at end to add the words "This expenditure
should be funded from reductions in other areas of the DWP budget."
- (Andrew Selous)
Question put that the amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 2
Andrew Selous
Mr Nigel Waterson
| Noes, 5
Ms Vera Baird
Miss Anne Begg
Ms Karen Buck
Mr Andrew Dismore
Rob Marris
|
Paragraphs 77 and 78 (now paragraphs 83 and 84) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 79 (now paragraph 85) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 80 and 81 (now paragraphs 86 and 87) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 82 to 84 (now paragraphs 88 to 90) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraph 85 (now paragraph 91) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 86 (now paragraph 92) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 87 and 88 (now paragraphs 93 and 94) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 89 (now paragraph 95) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 90 (now paragraph 96) read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 91 and 92 (now paragraphs 97 and 98) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 93 to 98 (now paragraphs 99 to 104) read and agreed
to.
A paragraph - (Rob Marris) brought up, read the first and
second time and inserted (now paragraph 105).
Paragraph 99 (now paragraph 106) read, amended and agreed to.
A paragraph - (Mr Andrew Dismore) - brought up, read the
first and second time and inserted (now paragraph 107).
Paragraphs 100 to 102 (now paragraph 108 to 110) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 103 (now paragraph 111) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 104 to 111 (now paragraphs 112 to 119) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 112 (now paragraph 120) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 113 to 133 (now paragraphs 121 to 141) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 134 (now paragraph 142) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 135 (now paragraph 143) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 136 (now paragraph 144) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 137 and 138 (now paragraphs 145 and 146) read and agreed
to.
A paragraph - (The Chairman) - brought up, read a first
and second time and inserted (now paragraph 147).
Paragraph 139 (now paragraph 148) read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 140 and 141 (now paragraphs 149 and 150) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 142 and 143 (now paragraphs 151 and 152) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 144 (now paragraph 153) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 145 to 147 (now paragraphs 154 to 156) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 148 (now paragraph 157) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 149 to 153 (now paragraphs 158 to 162) read and agreed
to.
A Paragraph - (The Chairman) - brought up, read the first
and second time and inserted (now paragraph 163).
Paragraphs 154 to 159 (now paragraphs 164 to 169) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 160 (now paragraph 170) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 161 (now paragraph 171) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 162 (now paragraph 172) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 163 and 164 (now paragraphs 173 and 174) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 165 (now paragraph 175) read, amended and agreed to.
A paragraph - (Mr Andrew Dismore) - brought up, read the
first and second time and inserted (now paragraph 176).
Paragraph 166 (now paragraphs 177) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 167 to 170 (now paragraphs 178 to 181) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 171 (now paragraph 182) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 172 to 187 (now paragraphs 183 to 197) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 188 (now paragraph 198) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 189 to 193 (now paragraphs 199 to 203) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 194 (now paragraph 204) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 195 to 203 (now paragraphs 205 to 213) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 204 (now paragraph 214) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 205 (now paragraph 215) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 206 (now paragraph 216) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 207 (now paragraph 217) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 208 (now paragraph 218) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 209 to 211 (now paragraphs 219 to 221) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 212 (now paragraph 222) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 213 (now paragraph 223) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 214 (now paragraph 224) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 215 (now paragraph 225) read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 216 and 217 (now paragraphs 226 and 227) read, amended
and agreed to.
A paragraph - (Rob Marris) - brought up, read the first
and second time and inserted (now paragraph 228).
Paragraphs 218 to 223 (now paragraphs 229 to 234) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 224 and 225 (now paragraphs 235 and 236) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 226 to 229 (now paragraphs 237 to 240) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 230 (now paragraph 241) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 231 to 238 (now paragraphs 242 to 249) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 239 (now paragraph 250) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 240 and 241(now paragraphs 251 and 252) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 242 to 244 (now paragraphs 253 to 255) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 245 to 247 (now paragraphs 256 to 258) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 248 (now paragraph 259) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 249 (now paragraph 260) read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 250 and 251 (now paragraphs 261 and 262) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 252 and 253 (now paragraphs 263 and 264) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 254 and 255 (now paragraphs 265 and 266) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 256 to 265 (now paragraphs 267 to 276) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 266 (now paragraph 277) read, amended and agreed to.
A paragraph - (Mr Andrew Dismore) - brought up, read the
first and second time and inserted (now paragraph 278).
Paragraphs 267 to 270 (now paragraphs 279 to 282) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 271 (now paragraph 283) read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 272 and 273 (now paragraphs 284 and 285) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 274 and 275 (now paragraphs 286 and 287) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 276 and 277 (now paragraphs 288 and 289) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 278 to 280 (now paragraphs 290 to 292) read, amended
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 281 to 283 (now paragraphs 293 to 295) read and agreed
to.
Resolved, That the Report, as amended be the Fourth Report
of the Committee to the House.
Ordered, That the Chairman do make the report to the House.
Ordered, That the provisions of Standing Order No. 134
(Select Committees (reports)) be applied to the Report.
Several papers were ordered to be appended to the Report.
Several papers were ordered to be appended to the Minutes of Evidence.
Several Memoranda were ordered to be reported to the House.
[adjourned till Wednesday next at half past
nine o'clock
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