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Mr. Michael Trend (Windsor) (Con): The Under-Secretary, being my neighbour in east Berkshire, will know that we experienced a serious flood some 12 or 13 months ago, which mainly affected my constituency, but which might have affected hers to some extent. The people who were flooded, or who were involved in trying to find a way forward with the Environment Agency through flood risk and alleviation groups, feel strongly that they might have some grounds for action against the agency or the Government. Does the Under-Secretary envisage that an emergency might be declared in a slightly worse situation than that one? How high on the grade of situations that could be declared emergencies was that? Column Number: 163 Fiona Mactaggart: The hon. Gentleman was not here earlier when I gave an example of a flood that might have that result. That example would be familiar to people in his constituency of my age and over, being the 1953 flood, which affected the same area and a larger area. It put the road that runs between my constituency and that of the hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) completely under water, and turned Cookham into an island with about two houses on it. A flood of that size could be considered to require the kind of powers envisaged in the Bill, whereas a flood such as the one that we recently experienced could, although devastating to our constituents, properly be dealt with within the current legislative framework. The legislation that we are debating should be used only when the problem cannot properly be dealt with by other legislation. Mr. Heald: Amendment No. 78 concerns electronic systems. I am not satisfied with the Under-Secretary's response. Under clause 18(1), an event must threaten serious damage to human welfare to be considered an emergency. Subsection (2) sets out the only circumstances in which that may arise, unless subsection (5) is used, by order, to add to a class, or to treat a specific incident as coming under one of the relevant headings, whether or not it might otherwise do so. One is entitled to ask, ''Can I imagine any circumstances in which disruption of an electronic system of communication would justify emergency powers legislation if it did not also involve disruption to money, food, water, energy, fuel, transport or health, loss of human life, human illness or injury, homelessness, or damage to property?'' If a disruption would not make any of those things happen, it is hard to see why it would warrant an emergency being called. I am not satisfied that there is a circumstance in which that would be the case. The Under-Secretary tried valiantly to give an example, and I give her full credit for trying. She came up with the example of air traffic control, but that would clearly involve disruption of facilities for transport, a point at which she later hinted. I am not satisfied, and I want to press amendment No. 78 to a Division. I am not quite sure of the procedure, because it is not the first amendment in the group, but in so far as it is necessary to ask for such a thing to happen, I ask now. Mr. Allan: We will take your advice, Mr. Benton, on how and when we can divide on that amendment. I have been moving backwards and forwards on my own amendment as the Under-Secretary has spoken. She gave a very considerate response, which in some ways has made things clearer. We are dealing with a huge set of events that can cause all the things described here. For instance, murders cause loss of human life, evictions can cause homelessness, computer viruses can bring down networks, the transport system can be disrupted on a daily basis by the train operating companies. All of that can happen, but for the emergency we are dealing with, the subset Column Number: 164 that must be satisfied is the condition of causing serious damage to human welfare. That is my understanding of her comments.In that context, I can understand the reason for paragraphs (a) to (c) and (e) to (h). They are restrictive, and clarify the circumstances that would call for declaring an emergency. However, paragraph (d) stands out in even greater contrast, because it is the least well defined of them all—anything can be ''damage to property''. The others seek to narrow the definition; but paragraph (d) is the one that absolutely broadens it out. I remain concerned about it. I understand the logic of the others paragraphs, but not of paragraph (d). On the flooding point, again we remain concerned because the importance of the reference to flooding, which we seek to delete, is that it refers back to subsection (1)(b), about the environment of the United Kingdom. The Under-Secretary talks about flooding and the damage to human welfare, but we are not talking about flooding in that context. The reference to flooding is specifically related to subsection (1)(b) and damage to the environment, rather than subsection (1)(a) and damage to human welfare. The flooding question remains open. My instinct is not to press our amendments, bearing in mind strictures from the Chair about issues that one might wish to return to. I think that we need to consider this issue further. I am not persuaded that the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound) is entirely on our side on this occasion, although he promised support on earlier occasions. I do not intend to press our amendments, but I hope that that does not disrupt the ability of Conservative Members to press amendment No. 78, which I would be minded to support. The Chairman: I shall put the question on amendment No. 78 formally when we come to it, but at the moment we are dealing with amendment No. 91. Mr. Allan: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment proposed: No. 78, in
Question put, That the amendment be made:— The Committee divided: Ayes 7, Noes 10.
Division No. 5]
AYES
NOES
Column Number: 165
Mr. Heald: I beg to move amendment No. 107, in
The amendment would remove subsections (5) and (6). Those subsections allow the Secretary of State to say that an event threatens damage to human welfare, and also to amend subsection (2) to define whether disruption to supply threatens damage. Subsection (6) allows consequential amendments to part 2 of the Bill provided that the draft has been approved by both Houses. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) made it clear on Second Reading that the subsection was worthy of particular consideration. He made the point that although times and circumstances had changed since 1920, questions of liberty and justice remain immutable. He pointed out that the Bill allows for carte blanche amendment, as he put it, and adaptation of existing legislation. He went on to criticise subsection (5) as enabling a Secretary of State to add classes of events and situations and specify them pretty much at will. That would obviously be subject to approval of both Houses of Parliament, but with a Government with a substantial majority—up until now—it will happen. My hon. Friend went on to quote Rene Descartes as saying, ''I think, therefore I am''. He made the point that in this Bill, the Secretary of State is saying, ''I think, therefore it shall be.'' I would like to probe the Minister on the purpose of subsections (5) and (6). Why are they necessary? In the context of the structure of the clause, which is designed to list only the matters that shall be treated as threats to human rights, is it right that the Government go on to say, ''Except that, if we want to, we can add any range of ideas or particular event''. The provisions do not seem to have the sort of certainty that the Under-Secretary was talking about a moment ago. Will the drafts be amendable? The draft cannot be laid before Parliament and amended, which is true—unusually—of the emergency regulations themselves, and that concession has been greatly welcomed. Given that the effect of the provisions could be to open up a range of new areas in which emergency powers can be given, should not the drafts be amendable? What will happen if we are in an emergency situation and the powers need to be exercised, but Parliament is unable to meet, for whatever reason? One can imagine an emergency bad enough that Parliament would not be able to meet. In those circumstances would the Secretary of State be stuck and unable to add to the categories, or is there some catch-all arrangement later on in the Bill? Would it be possible to deal with matters in some other way?
3 pmMr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) and I are probably in agreement with the Conservatives on this point. With good Column Number: 166 reason, the powers relating to subsections (1) and (2) have been drawn fairly widely, and we have no real quibble with that. However, to provide that the powers can effectively be amended by an order when they are as widely drawn as they are makes us feel somewhat uneasy.Mr. Heald: One point that I did not make, on which the hon. Gentleman may wish to give us his thoughts, is that if the matter were dealt with as the clause provides, we would normally be talking about a 90-mintue debate. As an important issue could arise, is he satisfied with that? Mr. Carmichael: It will come as no surprise to anyone that I certainly do not think that that is a particularly satisfactory way of dealing with the matter. The way in which this House, as opposed to the other place, deals with secondary legislation is not satisfactory, particularly when we are talking about an issue of such importance and gravity. If it were merely a question of orders being made under subsection (5)(a) to specify or exemplify the powers that are to be exercised under the earlier subsections, I might not have a quibble. However, when subsection (5)(a) is read with subsection (5)(b) and subsection (6), it is clear that what is envisaged is rather more extensive. I would be interested to hear the Minister's justification for that.
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