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Alan Johnson: Hon. Members will be aware of the increasing importance of collaboration in research projects. That is why I will ask the Committee to resist amendment No. 125, which I accept is a probing amendment, and to support clause 8, because we are dealing with its proposals in this debate. I give the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale the two assurances that he seeks. Yes, the funding will be predominantly for UK-based activity. In terms of duplication, I will take an even more personal interest in the matter than usual, as the hon. Gentleman has raised the issue. However, some UK research bodies will access European money, so there may be duplication, but it is not our money that pays for the duplication. Indeed, there is cost-effectiveness in that respect. However, I accept the hon. Gentleman's points and I assure him that we will try to avoid duplication whenever possible. I was asked about the percentage and although I do not have the exact figure for what is being spent on international collaboration, 3.76 per cent. of the research funding allocated by the AHRB was for collaborative projects; I am sure that the lion's share of that will be international collaboration. Such collaboration is extremely important, and needs to be continued. The research councils are actively engaged in funding international scientific priorities through subscriptions to international organisations such as the European Space Agency and the European southern observatory; through support for facilities outside the United Kingdom, including the British Antarctic Survey and oceanographic research ships; and through research programmes such as those in the Gambia, where we are studying a variety of diseases including HIV/AIDS, measles and malaria. The amendment would remove the certainty that expenses associated with such activities were provided for by the Secretary of State. Clause 8 largely duplicates provisions in the Science and Technology Act 1965, which provides the legal basis for ensuring that nothing in this part of the Bill restricts the activities of the arts and humanities research council to the UK or to any part of it. The council would thus be able to fund research that involved collaboration of the sort that I have described with researchers and academics across national boundaries, as well as at a European and wider international level. I hope that the Committee will agree that we are dealing with an important facet of the work of the research council, reject the amendment and agree that clause 8 should stand part of the Bill. Mr. Collins: I am most grateful to the Minister. He has given precisely the assurances that I sought. Indeed, many hon. Members may have thought that he made a powerful case for more than 3.76 per cent. to be devoted to international collaboration. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Mr. Thomas: I beg to move amendment No. 199, in Column Number: 37
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 200, in
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'and each of the devolved administrations'.
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Alan Johnson: We will if the hon. Gentleman withdraws them. [Laughter.] Mr. Thomas: Exactly. The background to the amendments is the relationship between the new research council and the devolved Administrations. Earlier, the Minister noted that we are legislating for matters that are devolved to Scotland and that a similar motion will have to be debated by the Scottish Parliament. That leads me to ask what we should do with regard to Wales and Northern Ireland. They are not quite the same constitutionally, but the matter is relevant and real when dealing with their relationship with the councils. We have already debated the funding gap for research councils in Wales. The aspiration of the National Assembly for Wales is to see the amount increase to 4.5 per cent. My aspiration is a little higher again. Nevertheless, people have an expectation. I have concentrated on the arts and humanities research council. Having been criticised on a previous amendment for including everyone, I hope that I will not be criticised for including only one body in these amendments. I want to find out what will be the reporting mechanism between the arts and humanities research council—and, by implication, the other research councils—and the devolved Administrations.
Column Number: 38 The most important amendment, I suggest, is amendment No. 204, which would ensure that the new research council gave a report on its functions during the previous year to the devolved Administrations as well as to the Secretary of State. If the Bill goes through in its present shape, higher education as a whole will be further devolved to the National Assembly, and it is vital that the Assembly has a grip on what is happening in the research councils, that it knows what sort of expenditure is going on and that it has a good relationship with them.It could be argued that that will happen naturally, and that the research council will want to talk to its stakeholders and to the National Assembly, the other co-funding partner that will be giving money to HEFCW. A natural relationship will emerge. However, it is always best when going through such things in Committee that we probe and tease out whether what we assume will happen is what Ministers want to happen. That is the purpose of the amendments, and their aims are pretty self-explanatory. In a nutshell, the amendments will ensure that the arts and humanities research council gives the Assembly an idea of its programmes and expenditure in advance, takes account of what the Assembly has to say about those estimates and those programmes and then reports formally to the Assembly at the end of the year in a formal way, in the same way as it would report to the Secretary of State for Wales. The same would apply to the Scottish Parliament and the potential is there for the Northern Ireland Assembly. I hope that the Minister can say something positive about the relationship between the new research council and the devolved Administrations in the United Kingdom. Alan Johnson: As the hon. Gentleman predicted I cannot accept the amendments. They are probing amendments and I believe that I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurances that he seeks. The AHRC will be required to report annually on the research that it commissions in territorially specific subjects as well as on the regional distribution of its research funding. Further, it will send copies of its formal annual report and accounts to the relevant Ministers across the UK who would then be free to place them in their respective parliamentary assembly libraries and research centres. A new UK-wide forum of Ministers, shadowed by an officials group, now plays an important role in monitoring the effectiveness of the research funding system and will provide the devolved Administrations with a valuable opportunity to pursue and discuss the performance of the AHRC with the DTI and the Office of Science and Technology. The draft royal charter—the hon. Gentleman may not have had a chance to absorb it all as it is a bit wordy—takes account of the need to support cultural and territorial research in different parts of the UK. We have given a commitment that the quinquennial review of the AHRC will examine its performance in dealing with such research.
Column Number: 39 To reassure the hon. Gentleman further, let me remind him and other hon. Members that we are not starting from scratch when we set up the AHRC. It will join a family of existing research councils with which the devolved nations already have a well-established and constructive relationship. I expect that relationship to continue when the AHRC is established.Members of the Committee may not be aware of the detailed recommendation of the review of the AHRB. It concluded that the current system of four-way reporting and accountability to the funding councils in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was unsatisfactory and that the inherent instability in the AHRB led to awkwardness in the arrangements for funding, accounting and governance. It led the review to conclude that the current arrangements could not continue indefinitely. Those recommendations were endorsed by Ministers in each of the devolved Administrations. Bearing in mind these points and the safeguards that I have explained, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw his amendment. Column Number: 40 Mr. Thomas: It is useful to have that explanation on the record and it will inform the AHRC. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The Chairman: Just before we come to amendment No. 9, I have told the Clerk that Mr. Hood should be informed that, subject to the debate on the amendment, there will be no need for a clause stand part debate.
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