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Alan Johnson: I shall do my best. The Privy Council agrees the charter, so the council is established by royal charter. The clause states that nothing in this part of the Bill has an effect on any power that may exist to amend or revoke the AHRC's royal charter, which hon. Members have seen in draft form, and the operation of such legislation.
The clause is a technical measure that ensures that changes can be made to the charter in future, as they can for any existing research council, to take account of changes in the way in which the council must operate. The Bill provides for the creation of a research council. The clauses are needed to establish the council on the same basis as other research councils.
As regards the constitutional issues that arise from the technicalities of changing the charter, I am advised that this is a technical process that applies in all such
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Bills. I hope that that rather convoluted explanation is enough to encourage hon. Members to allow the clause to stand part of the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 10
Research in arts and humanities
Chris Grayling: I beg to move amendment No. 13, in
clause 10, page 3, line 39, leave out 'carry out or'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 14, in
clause 10, page 4, line 1, leave out paragraph (b).
No. 29, in
clause 10, page 4, line 11, leave out 'carry out or'.
No. 30, in
clause 10, page 4, line 21, leave out 'carry out or'.
No. 31, in
clause 10, page 4, line 33, leave out 'carry out or'.
Chris Grayling: This set of amendments addresses what is undoubtedly a puzzlement in the Bill and I seek an explanation about the wording in the clause.
The words in subsection (1), which apply to England, have been replicated in subsequent subsections for the National Assembly for Wales, Scottish Ministers and the Northern Ireland Department, although I assume that the last provision would change if powers were redevolved to a reconstructed Assembly. The words refer to the Secretary of State's ability to
''carry out or support research in the arts and humanities''.
Most of that, particularly the latter part, makes perfect sense. What does not make perfect sense is the words ''carry out or''. At the very least the wording appears strange, given the potential dimensions of the clause.
We have some sense of the Secretary of State's academic background. He is a Cambridge graduate and was a distinguished member of that university who became a senior representative of the students' union. He achieved a degree in maths and economics, perhaps making his skills more suited to the work of the Economic and Social Research Council than that of the arts and humanities research council. Indeed, I looked through the board's work to try to identify which projects he might wish to carry out. Perhaps the project '''Meeting the Other'—Cross-Sexual Encounters with the Other World in Old Norse Mythology'', a recent piece of work, would interest him. The board's website lists a number of interesting and diverse projects, such as the ''The history and current status of 'bad language' as a concept in German folk linguistics''. Perhaps the obvious one is ''The Absurd in Literature''.
The board funds an enormous diversity of projects from all parts of the globe in the arts and humanities. Some are very worthy; others, to those of us of a more sceptical and cynical mind, are of more questionable academic benefit. There is not a great deal of mediaeval history in the projects listed on the board's
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website, but I am sure that, in its new guise, and with the guidance that the Secretary of State will give it, that may change in future. Knowing the Secretary of State's particular interest in mediaeval history, he may have had that in mind when thinking about the ability to carry out research in his own right.
I seriously question exactly what use the Secretary of State and his Department will make of the right to carry out research in the arts and humanities. I also have questions about the role of the National Assembly for Wales in carrying out research in the arts and humanities. The same is true of the Scottish Ministers, and certainly of the Northern Ireland Department. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and his Ministers are estimable people, but I am not entirely sure where this particular aspect of the needs of the nation fits into their portfolio.
Given the wording of the clause, can the Minister explain the purpose of giving the Secretary of State the right to carry out research? Why have the words ''carry out'' been used? That seems unusual. Why does paragraph (b) provide the Secretary of State with the power to
''disseminate the results of research in the arts and humanities''?
Why is that same power offered to the devolved bodies and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland? I should have thought that disseminating research was a matter for the academic world and learned journals. It does not make an awful lot of sense for the Government to have that power.
Mr. Collins: Has my hon. Friend noticed the contrast between the roles set out for the Secretary of State in this clause and the roles set out for the arts and humanities research council in clause 1? The council's role includes:
''carrying out, facilitating, encouraging, and supporting''
research; the Secretary of State has only half those abilities. The council's role includes ''advancing and disseminating knowledge'', but the Secretary of State will only disseminate knowledge. Does my hon. Friend think that it is interesting that the Secretary of State will not have the power to advance knowledge?
Chris Grayling: That is an interesting point. Nor, I see, does he have the right to encourage knowledge. He has been doing a lot of encouraging in recent weeks, and is probably very well versed in it—although I suspect not when it comes to encouraging research and in the arts and humanities.
This is an odd clause. In my experience of working on Bills, they throw up clauses that on the face of it seem strange and to some extent incomprehensible. The Minister undoubtedly knows why the clause has been included and will give us a cogent explanation, but I am intrigued to know his justification for the provision that will enable the Secretary of State himself to
''carry out . . . research in the arts and humanities''.
Alan Johnson: We have begun the process of the textual striptease that will take place in the debates on the three groups of amendments for this clause. It is proposed that we start by removing three words, then
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delete two sentences per subsection, and then, in the final debate, delete practically the whole lot. The clause would be left entirely naked by the time we had finished the striptease process.
The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) talked about the Secretary of State as being the Secretary of State for Education and Skills. The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale pointed out earlier that most references to the Secretary of State mean the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, who is quite a different person. I would love to carry out one, but I would have great difficulty in carrying out the other.
On the famous ''carry out'' amendments, the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell is right, because the provision applies to Secretaries of State in all Departments that have any contact with the research councils. I asked the same question about carrying out. We are talking about the difference between a Department carrying out research itself within that Department, and a Department getting another body to carry out research for it. For instance—this may be the only example, but it is certainly a good one—''carrying out'' is used for almost all the research undertaken by the Department for Transport under the authority of section 5(1)(a) of the Science and Technology Act 1965. There is a similar provision in the 1965 Act. The Department does all of that research in house, and that is why the words ''carry out'' are there, as well as ''support''. That is the simple explanation.
The hon. Gentleman also wishes to remove the part of the clause that states:
''(d) establish advisory bodies for the purpose of assisting the Secretary of State in matters connected with research in the arts and humanities, and
(e) if the Secretary of State establishes such a body, appoint its members on terms which include the payment of remuneration, allowances or pension benefits''.
The Secretary of State often needs to establish advisory bodies on pieces of research. As that happens with the other seven research councils, we see no reason why it should not happen with arts and humanities. I understood the confusion of the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell in his rather entertaining speech, but it would be perilous to remove the paragraphs.
3.30 pm
Chris Grayling: The Minister is jumping a debate. My point was about paragraph (b), which states:
''disseminate the results of research in the arts and humanities''.
Alan Johnson: I apologise. I thought that amendment No. 14, which would remove paragraphs (d) and (e) from subsection (1), was part of this group. I am happy to point out the terms of the hon. Gentleman's amendments.
The Chairman: Order. Amendment No. 14 would leave out paragraph (b).
Alan Johnson: I am now sure that we all absolutely know where we are going.
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If one thinks about the Department for Transport, for example—I can think of several other Government Departments to which this would apply—the dissemination of information is not done by the Secretary of State himself but within the Department. That is what is referred to in the clause. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment. If he will not, I hope that the Committee will defeat it.
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