Higher Education Bill

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Mr. Thomas: I have waited my turn until now, when we have got to the meat of the matter and the last strip of cloth from the Conservatives' amendments has been unveiled and they stand arrayed in their anti-devolutionist glory. That is what their amendments add up to.

The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell spoke to them in a very measured and considered way. He talked about the impact of regulation and the fact that the research council is a United Kingdom body, but he cannot conceive that, if the Secretary of State in England retains powers to initiate research in science or arts and humanities, the modern devolution settlement means quite rightly that those powers are devolved for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the Bill explains that.

The Minister mentioned the Scottish example, which has been used to develop strategic research development grants in Scotland through the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council in science. Who is to say what similar need will arise in Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland for similar pump-priming? The debate that I had with the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Jonathan Shaw) was about the need—

Jonathan Shaw: It seems a long time ago.

Mr. Thomas: It was this morning. The debate was about the need to divert resources from time to time to help develop the research capacities of particular institutions or parts of the United Kingdom. The clause allows us to do that and it should therefore be supported. I hope that the Committee will resist the siren voices of the Conservatives, which seem to suggest that the matter is about getting rid of regulation, when it is really about getting rid of devolution and democracy.

The clause rightly allows the National Assembly to consider research needs in Wales. If there is a gap that needs to be closed to allow institutions to enter the Research Council circle of funding and develop their ideas, we will be able to do it.

In my constituency I have the National Library of Wales, which is a research centre in arts and humanities. Next door to it is the Canolfan Uwch-efrydian Celtaidd. I do not know the English title but I assume that it would be something like the Centre for Advanced Celtic Studies. It is one of the major centres of Celtic study in the world. It is possibly related to the element of Norse that we discussed earlier as well. It receives money from the National Assembly and from research councils, and it shows how we can develop arts and humanities research particular to Welsh needs that reflects on a wider international stage as well. I hope that the Committee rejects the amendments and supports the Bill as it stands.

The Chairman: Before I call the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel), I just say to those on the Government Front Bench and their colleagues behind them, that if I can hear them whispering, they are whispering too loudly.

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Mr. Rendel: I rise to support what the hon. Member for Ceredigion has just said. The amendments are an attempt to remove devolution from the Bill, which would be sad to see.

We can see some of the reasons behind the amendments, and I suspect that Conservative Members are concerned about subsection (3), which relates specifically to Scotland and provides no excuse for Scottish Members of Parliament to avoid voting on the Bill on the ground that it has nothing to do with Scotland. The subsection quite clearly states that it has something to do with Scotland.

That is even more interesting, given one hon. Member's attempt to raise a point of order earlier today. You quite rightly explained that it was not a point of order, Mr. Hood. He announced that the Government's majority on the Bill had sunk to three, since the voting pattern of the Conservatives on the matter—

4.1 pm

Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

4.16 pm

On resuming—

Mr. Rendel: I was speaking mainly to amendment No. 27. You will remember, Mr. Hood, that I was saying that the point of order raised earlier by Conservative Members showed that the Government's majority on the Bill might now be down to three. That raises an interesting situation, as four of the Government's majority on Second Reading was due to Conservative Members, one voting with the Government and two abstaining. One of those who abstained was the sole Scottish Conservative Member. If the clause were removed, that might help the Government—I hope that they will not vote to remove it—because it would enable that hon. Member to abstain again. However, that would not necessarily help the Liberal Democrats, because we want to put pressure on that hon. Member. Leaving the clause in the Bill would enable us to put pressure on him, particularly as it now looks as if that one vote may make all the difference to the whole Bill at the end.

Chris Grayling: I hate to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, as he seeks to find possible motives for this set of amendments, but I assure him that the amendment is based on principle and concern rather than political strategy and intent.

Mr. Rendel: Whatever the reasons for tabling the amendment, I should be delighted to see the subsection remain in the Bill. If it does, the pressure on that Conservative Member to vote next time round will be greater. I hope that we will put that pressure on him and enable him to vote in what I consider to be the right way.

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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Don Touhig): We have a change of act on this side, Mr. Hood, but as with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education, there will be no striptease. Rather, I shall try to strip away the arguments put by the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell. We have been here before. It is Groundhog Day, with three of us facing one another, as we have on matters of this nature in the past. I pay tribute to you, Mr. Hood, as our Chairman, and to your co-Chairman, and I look forward to serving on this Committee under your guidance.

The amendments would place arts and humanities research in the devolved Administrations in an unreasonable position, and one that is very different from that for the science and technology research councils. They would remove the powers provided to the devolved Administrations to undertake activities in support of arts and humanities research and to fund such work.

We must consider how that the clause will benefit research. We should replicate what the Secretary of State proposes for England in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Those powers are among the key mechanisms by which we are implementing the recommendations of the review of arts and humanities research funding.

The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell made the point that the review said that there should be a duty to promote research into the cultural aspects of the various parts of the United Kingdom. That should be safeguarded. It is important that we take that into account when considering the amendment.

The devolved Administrations support the transformation of the Arts and Humanities Research Board into a UK-wide research council. We discuss those matters with colleagues in those Administrations in order to ensure that the transfer will be as seamless as possible.

Amendments Nos. 26, 27 and 28 would leave the devolved Administrations with no option other than to use an intermediary organisation to achieve their broader policy objectives in arts and humanities. Understandably, members of those Administrations do not consider that to be an acceptable position. When debating clause 1, the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale said that arts and humanities research deserves parity of esteem. I hope the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment as a consequence.

The hon. Member for Ceredigion made an important point. People from my part of the country feel that the Conservatives in Wales say one thing about the devolution settlement, but in Committee they seek to amend any legislation that impedes its development. He will forgive me if I chide him a little. He speaks about devolving powers to Wales. His party is not in favour of devolving those particular powers to Wales. That is a mystery to me.

The hon. Member for Newbury also made an important point. We should remember that we are Members of the United Kingdom Parliament. People from all parts of the country have a right to speak on

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matters that come before the House. It is a pity that the Conservative and Unionist party can no longer call itself the Unionist party because of its attitude to Scottish Members voting on matters. I will be careful not to stray too far in case I test your patience, Mr. Hood.

In that part of the Bill, we wish to ensure that the devolved Administrations have the same opportunity and ability to support research and development as the Secretary of State has in England. I hope that the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell understands that point. That is the proper way forward. We recognise the need for parity of esteem for the devolved Administrations.

Chris Grayling: I have been listening carefully to the Under-Secretary's comments. I am delighted to see him again. It is the third time in 12 months that we have debated related issues. We seem to follow each other around. It is a pleasure to debate with him again and to return to some of the arguments and issues that we have discussed previously. One of those is the risk of duplication of work in bodies in different parts of the United Kingdom.

I am reassured by the Minister's comments. Those measures concern commissioning research, and will ensure that resources that are available within devolved Assemblies are made available to Research Councils UK. I add a caveat. There is a danger that that will become not simply a method to deploy research money strategically for the benefit of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but a vehicle to centre research upon those countries. I hope that the three Administrations would not direct their research solely into matters relating to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, but use the resources available to support specific strategic objectives, economic or otherwise. If there were, for example, a specific link between one of the creative industries and a higher education institution in Wales, it would be of benefit to the institution and the local economy if the devolved Assembly made resources available to encourage research that was supported by both that industry and the institution.

 

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Prepared 10 February 2004