| Higher Education Bill
|
|
Mr. Boswell: I would like to challenge the hon. Gentleman slightly on his point about there being no protection under the law. I do not think that he would wish to make difficulties for the Committee on the subject, but he may want to question whether the measures will work. If a student has a complaint in relation to a further education college, whatever course they are on, they have the option, if they feel that the college has not met their complaint adequately, of having recourse to the learning and skills council. It is important that that point is clarified before the debate proceeds. Mr. Willis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. What he mentions is, quite frankly, one of the reasons why I want further education colleges to be included. If he is saying that an instrument of Government, appointed by the Secretary of State—and that is what the learning and skills councils are—is the natural adjudicator and the final port of call for complaints, I am sorry but I do not agree with him. I believe that we ought to have an independent complaint system in both further and higher education. That is not to cast aspersion on, or to doubt the integrity of, those concerned. I just do not believe that that system gives the air of independence that we are seeking. If we are looking ahead—and any piece of legislation has to; we will certainly be doing so with top-up fees on Thursday and for the two weeks after that—we will have to look at the system of delivery, and what level three and level four qualifications will be in future. There will be none of the simple demarcation lines that there have been in the past in further and higher education; we will be moving on. To be fair to both Ministers, they constantly make the point that we need a system in which students flow between FE and HE. Our policy, which we have laid out, is that we want a sort of scaffold in terms of courses and qualifications. Students could then move along and come down as they need to gain new skills on their journey and progress through lifelong learning. The hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) has already pointed out that somewhere in the region of 11 or 12 per cent. of students doing higher education qualifications already do them in FE institutions. I have made the point that if another 250,000 students are added by 2010 we will see a rapid rise in the number of students in FE colleges doing higher education courses. On those grounds alone, there is a sound argument to say that FE should be covered by a single adjudication system—I shall come on to the issue of ombudsmen on a later amendment—rather than having separate systems for two sets of students. This position would point out quite clearly that if one is a higher education university student, one is elevated, and if one is an FE student, one does not have the same recourse to those complaint support mechanisms. We already have, within FE, an unregulated market in terms of fees. If this Bill goes through we will have the anomaly of a regulated market, or a semi-regulated market, in higher education, but not in FE. I ask that the Government consider seriously whether FE Column Number: 80 colleges and the students within them should be covered, rather than just higher education institutions—rather than having the situation in the 1992 Act updated to a 2004 Act—and whether all post-16 students should be covered by an independent adjudicator system.Mr. Collins: There were a couple of things that the hon. Gentleman said that I could agree with. I agree that it is very important that we should all put on record that we do not believe that there is a serious problem in the relationship between colleges of further education and their students. I was also encouraged by how he started, when he said that this was only a probing amendment. However, I must confess that I was a little puzzled, because he then explained at some length why it was an extremely important amendment, and said that he reserved the right to return to this matter on Report, which implied that he was not really probing, but actually means it. If he does mean it, he should not. The Association of Colleges made a very clear statement on this—in fact, the hon. Gentleman referred to it in passing himself—in which it says that further education colleges have established effective complaints procedures, and that the scheme is approved by the Learning and Skills Council. It also says:
Mr. Willis: One of the main thrusts of the amendment is that there would not, in fact, be two separate systems. There would be a single system covering all FE and HE students. The hon. Gentleman might disagree with that, but I would be grateful if he did not misreport me. Mr. Collins: All I would say is that I am not misreporting the hon. Gentleman, I am accurately quoting what the Association of Colleges thinks about his amendment. I presume that we would agree that members of the Association of Colleges are capable of reading amendments. They are not supportive of this one.
Mr. Thomas: In clause 12, under qualifying complaints, the hon. Gentleman will find that, under the present regime, those studying HE courses in FE institutions will come under this independent adjudicator. Therefore, there are two systems at work here, and I think the point made by the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough is correct. [
Column Number: 81
Mr. Collins: Not on FE matters, as my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry says from a sedentary position. The clear point here is that the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough said that the amendment was designed to probe. I hope that that is the case. I have to tell him that if he does push it to a vote, he will not have Conservative Members' support.
Mr. Lewis: It will be a struggle to debate the definition of probing, so I shall leave that until another time. The hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough raised a reasonable point, which generated a worthwhile debate. It is true that the Association of Colleges reflects the widespread view that is shared by the Conservative party that, if it ain't broke, why fix it? By that, I mean the existing complaints process within the further education sector. I say to the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough that we agree about the progression of students from further education to higher education, although I suspect that he meant to use the term ''climbing frame'', not ''scaffold'' in that context. The hon. Gentleman has a fixation about moving to a market system and linking it with the desire of users of public services in a modern world to have high expectations of those services. I assure him that, whatever model we choose to adopt or refer to, at the beginning of the 21st century users of public services rightly have high expectations. We as politicians cannot afford to ignore those expectations or to avoid sometimes making it clear that we expect providers of those services to be accountable and transparent. If I have one criticism of the hon. Gentleman, it is that he frequently—almost entirely—sides with the provider, not the user. It is more important that we achieve the right balance between the providers and users of public services in the modern world. However, we certainly agree that further education students must not ever be regarded as second class. That is one of the reasons why I resent the fact that some politicians and commentators want to have a choice in our society between higher and vocational education. That is an entirely false choice in a modern world. We need more people who are skilled to a high level and more graduates to meet our social and economic imperatives. Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) (Lab): Towards the end of the proceedings, I wonder whether my hon. Friend will set some homework for the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough. If we do not currently have a market in higher education, what do we have? It may be an imperfect market, but there is a market, so we need to intervene. I asked my hon. Friend that question on the Floor of the House. Will he ask the hon. Gentleman to take it away for the next 48 hours and perhaps come back with an answer? Column Number: 82 Mr. Lewis: I was not aware that part of my brief was to set homework for members of the Committee. I am delighted to see my brief expand even further and I urge the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough to take up my hon. Friend's challenge. Mr. Rendel: I thought that recent reports in the newspapers stated that homework has now been discredited. Mr. Lewis: Even if the Liberal Democrats did any homework, that would not make any difference unless they were studying various spending commitments that the Prime Minister likes to discuss from time to time on a Wednesday. We share the aspiration that further education students should never view themselves or be seen by us as second class. Let us consider the complaints process to which further education students have access. Obviously, students can go to the institution. If they exhaust its procedure and are not satisfied, they can go to the local Learning and Skills Council. If they are still not satisfied, they can contact the national Learning and Skills Council and then, as a result of new legislation, they can contact through their Members of Parliament the parliamentary ombudsman, who is an entirely independent person. Moreover, in many ways, further education students know more about the choices that are open to them—before they make them—than university students. Let us consider the role of Ofsted and the Adult Learning Inspectorate when inspecting further education institutions and the provision of reviews by the learning and skills councils, which is an ongoing monitoring of the quality of provision in further education institutions. It is legitimate and reasonable for the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough to raise such an issue, but our view is the widespread view of the sector. As he knows, it is the view of the Association of Colleges, but it is also my experience that the existing complaints processes work exceptionally well in the further education sector. On that basis, I ask him to withdraw the amendment.
|
| |
| ©Parliamentary copyright 2004 | Prepared 10 February 2004 |
