|
Column Number: 257
Standing Committee H
Thursday 26 February 2004
(Morning)
[Mr. Jimmy Hood in the Chair]
Clause 23
Condition that may be required to be imposed by English funding bodies
Amendment proposed [24 February]: No. 82, in
clause 23, page 9, line 7, leave out paragraph (a).—[Mrs. Campbell.]
9.10 am
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
The Chairman: I remind the Committee that with this we are taking the following amendments: No. 3, in
No. 144, in
No. 223, in
No. 239, in
clause 23, page 9, line 11, at end insert
'and that there is provision to students, as directed by the Secretary of State, of a bursary equivalent to at least 10 per cent. of the fee, or £300, whichever is the greater sum'.
No. 83, in
clause 23, page 9, line 13, leave out from 'period' to 'institution' in line 15.
No. 84, in
clause 23, page 9, line 26, leave out paragraph (a).
No. 85, in
clause 23, page 10, leave out lines 30 and 31.
No. 120, in
No. 110, in
No. 86, in
clause 24, page 10, line 44, leave out 'and the higher amount'.
No. 87, in
clause 24, page 10, line 48, leave out 'and the higher amount'.
No. 88, in
Column Number: 258
clause 24, page 11, line 1, leave out 'either of those amounts' and insert 'that amount'.
No. 89, in
clause 26, page 11, line 26, leave out paragraph (a).
No. 225, in
No. 240, in
clause 26, page 11, line 30, at end insert
'and that there is provision to students, as directed by the Secretary of State, of a bursary equivalent to at least 10 per cent. of the fee, or £300, whichever is the greater sum'.
No. 252, in
No. 90, in
clause 26, page 11, line 32, leave out from 'period' to 'institution' in line 34.
No. 91, in
clause 26, page 12, leave out lines 33 and 34.
No. 121, in
No. 92, in
clause 31, page 14, line 5, leave out subsection (1).
No. 93, in
clause 31, page 14, line 10, leave out 'also'.
No. 94, in
clause 31, page 14, leave out lines 39 to 43.
No. 95, in
clause 35, page 16, line 4, leave out '(a) or'.
No. 96, in
clause 36, page 16, line 23, leave out '(a) or'.
Mr. David Chaytor (Bury, North) (Lab): In continuing the debate on this group of amendments, I should to speak against amendment No. 82, give a little moral support to amendments Nos. 144, 223 and 239, and comment on amendment No. 110, which was discussed briefly on Tuesday.
I know that this is not a Second Reading debate, but with regard to the general issues underlying the Bill, the principle of the variable fee and the graduate repayment scheme is the right way forward. I have supported a graduate repayment scheme for the best part of 20 years and I am enthusiastic about the principle of variable fees, although sceptical about whether that will make a significant difference in the short term. We must be realistic about the likely impact of variable fees. I suspect that the vast majority of institutions and courses will move towards the £3,000 figure.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell) for consistently pursuing her argument in favour of variable fees. [Interruption.]
Column Number: 259
Sorry, I meant to say in opposition to variable fees. It is always worth trying those tactics. She has provided a model for a professional, conscientious Member of Parliament with the way in which she has consulted widely among her constituents and represented their views. However, I disagree with her fundamentally.
I am conscious that I have the luxury of not having to represent a constituency such as Cambridge, excellent constituency and university as it is. My constituency perhaps represents the United Kingdom as a whole more accurately than the constituency of any other hon. Member in the Room, because in my constituency 18 per cent. of people are graduates and 82 per cent. are not graduates, which is entirely in line with the national figures. Therefore, as well as the luxury of not being subject to intense pressure from the National Union of Students or any of its local offshoots, I have the advantage of representing a constituency that represents British public opinion far more accurately.
To set the matter in context, I should point out that during the past 12 months since the White Paper was published I have received a total of 24 communications on the whole subject, 17 of which were e-mails orchestrated by the NUS. Seven were letters, four of which opposed the Government's policy and three of which were in favour. It is important to appreciate that context, because for the overwhelming majority of people in the UK, variable fees are not an issue, as they have never been anywhere near a university, and for such education and training post-18 as they have experienced, they have paid variable fees. The debate has been dominated by the graduate elite in Parliament, the media and the south-east. If we had a stronger regional balance in our political culture, perhaps there would not have been such a focus on the contentious issue of variable fees.
The difficulty with the wholly or almost wholly taxpayer-funded system of university education that has applied for most of the 60 years since the end of the second world war is that it has been the education equivalent of the common agricultural policy, because it has trapped huge amounts of public investment and directed it largely to those people who need it least. That has to change, and the graduate repayment scheme is an important step towards changing it. The introduction of variable fees is another important step towards the fairly mild, gentle redistribution of our education budget that is necessary if we are to liberate the potential of all our young people.
In forming a judgment about variable fees and amendment No. 82, we must consider the evidence. It has been said many times that in the whole of our post-18 education and training system—other than in the specific case of full-time undergraduates—variable fees are the norm, have been the norm and will always be the norm. There is no evidence whatever that variable fees have acted as a deterrent to participation, whether in the Open university, postgraduate study or part-time study in our universities, HE in the further education sector, the further education sector itself, or in workplace training on employers' premises. Where
Column Number: 260
variable fees apply, the level of participation by different social groups is far higher than it is among full-time undergraduates. Those are important points.
I shall speak briefly about amendment No. 110, which refers to training in veterinary science. The hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison) raised that matter because the campus of the Royal Veterinary college is in his constituency, and he expressed concern that the college and those students would be at a disadvantage. I have tried briefly to make a point about his argument on participation. My right hon. Friend the Minister said that recruitment to veterinary science was not as bad as he had described, and was fairly healthy. According to one of the Higher Education Funding Council widening participation indicators, the Royal Veterinary college did not perform particularly badly. On the other two indicators, which concern the participation of students from low-income neighbourhoods and from social classes III, IV and V, the Royal Veterinary college performs above its targets. The arguments that the hon. Gentleman made were not entirely rooted in statistical reality. I dwell on that briefly, because it demonstrates that there will be some losers in the new system. We should not shy away from that as it is a way to rebalance opportunities across the university sector. Those pursuing degrees in veterinary science and in many other similar professions are confident that they will enjoy lucrative careers, and it is entirely right that the new system should require them to pay a slightly bigger contribution.
I want to discuss amendment No. 82 and deal with the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge in support of her opposition to variable fees. First, she says that they will introduce a market in HE. The fact is that there is now and always has been a market in higher education. Every 18-year-old filling in a Universities and Colleges Admissions Service form knows that. The currency for that market was largely A-level grades before 1998, which were supplemented by a fixed fee from 1998. It is not credible to say that variable fees will transform the system. It is a highly segmented market, and the currency brought to that market determines one's ability to enter it.
The market is highly imbalanced between the powers of the producers—the universities—and those of the consumers. One of the positive benefits of a move to a variable fee system will be to strengthen slightly the power of the consumers and to concentrate their minds on the choices that they make. Similarly, the system will concentrate the minds of the producers to ensure that they provide the best possible information about their courses to their applicants, so there are positive advantages.
|
