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Standing Committee H
Thursday 4 March 2004
[Mr. Roger Gale in the Chair]
Clause 30
General duties of relevant authority
Amendment proposed [this day]: No. 24, in
2.30 pm
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
The Chairman: I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following amendments: No. 268, in
clause 30, page 13, line 41, leave out paragraph (b).
No. 193, in
No. 194, in
No. 221, in
No. 235, in
No. 195, in
clause 38, page 17, line 12, at end insert—
' ''fair access to higher education'' means the principle that no person shall be precluded or deterred from pursuing any qualifying course for any reason other than academic ability, and in particular that no person shall be so precluded or deterred by reason of his income,'.
Mr. David Rendel (Newbury) (LD): I have just met a group of young students from my constituency and was able to tell them that I was in the middle of probably my longest speech in the House of Commons. I spoke for around an hour in our sitting this morning and it is now more than three hours since I started my speech. I shall not take too much more time.
I was responding to an intervention from the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), who said that A-levels, if not the sole criterion for university entrance, should play a part. I was agreeing and did not want him to think that I thought that A-levels had no part to play in the choice of students who are offered places at university. I was about to say that some people had gone to
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university without having any A-levels, perhaps as mature students. A-levels are a useful, but not necessarily essential, part of the criteria to be used in choosing who goes to university.
In terms of the Conservative amendment, it is hard to measure how difficult it is to decide how to choose people on the basis of their academic ability and potential. Examinations are only part of the process. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that if A-levels are not the only way of judging the ability and potential of applicants, all applicants will have to be interviewed? I have some sympathy with the use of interviews as another way of sorting out those who have the greatest ability and those who have a lesser ability, but they also pose problems.
The first is the problem of cost and timing if we continue with the present system. Many of us—the Minister indicated earlier that he might agree with this—think that it would be better to change the system so that applications are made only after A-level results are known at the end of a fifth term of an applicant's final year. That might help, but there would be a problem in interviewing everyone who applied to university because of the cost and the time involved in that process.
Another problem that has become apparent is the quality of interviewers. Most interviewers are lecturers at the universities concerned and not all of them have been well trained in interviewing techniques. Some may not be good interviewers, so the whole business may become a lottery. I have always told my family and other youngsters who apply to Oxford and Cambridge that entrance to those universities is a matter of luck. Many students could make good use of an Oxford or Cambridge course and have the necessary academic ability, but it so often seems to be a matter of luck as to who interviews them. Some people have an interviewer with whom they click and who immediately takes to them as a person and sees their abilities. Others have an interviewer who may be shy or does not know much about interviewing techniques and may make the wrong choice. I have always tried to persuade those who go for an interview at Oxford or Cambridge that it is a matter of luck as to whether they are accepted and that there are many good universities elsewhere if they do not get into those two.
Mrs. Anne Campbell (Cambridge) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it should not be a matter of luck and that selection interviewing, if done properly, can be a good way of discriminating between good and mediocre students, not that Cambridge ever gets mediocre students? Does that not point to the need for much better training for interviewers rather than leaving the process to luck?
Mr. Rendel: The hon. Lady makes an extremely good point, with which I entirely agree. Techniques can be taught. There is no question that the quality of interviews can be improved. Obviously, that can be done in some cases. The difficulty is that a scheme under which everyone is interviewed requires a large number of interviewers. Although training can be given, there will always be some people who are better at an activity and more able to learn the techniques than others. There will be a problem if we say that everyone must be interviewed.
Kali Mountford (Colne Valley) (Lab): I am following closely the hon. Gentleman's points about selection by either A-level results or interview alone. Has he considered those universities that take students from so-called non-traditional backgrounds without any A-levels? They check the student's potential, academic achievement or merit by setting a standard test—for example, an essay or a piece of work that is applicable to the degree course for which the student is applying.
Mr. Rendel: The hon. Lady also makes a good point. I did not intend to imply that the process should consist of any one of A-levels, interviews or some test. All those methods should be considered, and sometimes several may have to be used to make a fair choice.
Mr. Tim Boswell (Daventry) (Con): The hon. Gentleman makes some perfectly fair points. Does he agree that use of the interviewing technique leaves room for difference of opinion? For example, the interview may be culturally loaded in favour of the confident student and away from someone with a background that is less socially developed, or, conversely, as I suspect happens more often than not, it may tend to favour the person with the kind of ability to which the interviewing technique is sensitive.
Mr. Rendel: The hon. Gentleman makes good points in both directions. That is why I was emphasising that none of the techniques is perfect on its own. We must consider the possibility that universities will use a variety of techniques, depending on the individual candidate or circumstances.
There are also problems with the Government's wording. First, there is great difficulty in defining exactly what ''fair access'' means. The Government have not done that. It is clear that the techniques that are used to decide who goes to university result in many people from less-advantaged backgrounds not going. That is not necessarily a failing of the process itself. I shall explain in a moment the other reasons for under-representation of some groups, which clearly is happening.
The question is whether the access arrangements are causing the problem. For example, would the Government consider that access arrangements were fair if students did not necessarily need any particular qualifications? It is dangerous to say that someone is fully and sufficiently prepared for a university course just because they have the ability to do it. Certain levels of knowledge and understanding of a particular subject may be necessary before one starts a university course. If they went on ability alone, they might struggle when they got there and be put off from finishing the course. There is a question as to whether we need to set at least some qualification standards.
Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): The hon. Gentleman's last point is enormously important. I am sure he would accept that that consideration becomes
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doubly important given the overall context of the debate. Not only are we asking a young person to enter an environment for which they may not be best prepared, we are also asking them, as a result of the Bill's provisions, to make a much larger financial contribution than they would have previously. Therefore, it is doubly important that a university course is right for them.
Mr. Rendel: I would not demur at all on that point.
Making access fair does not necessarily guarantee wider participation. That consideration is missing from the way in which the office for fair access is being set up. If anything, I would like OFFA to try to ensure wider participation, but all that we have been given is an assurance that it will ensure that the access arrangements are fair. However, fair access arrangements do not necessarily lead to better and fairer participation.
In particular, we have the difficulty that participation in universities depends on a number of people other than those in the university. The first group of people it depends on are the potential students. They have to decide that they want to apply to go to university, let alone whether they want to go if they are offered a place. As a number of hon. Members said, unless we encourage potential students to get to the stage at which they apply to and accept places at universities, we are going to be in trouble.
I say in passing that one of the saddest things about the Laura Spence case was the way in which—perhaps without meaning to—the Chancellor undoubtedly gave the impression that he felt that Oxford and Cambridge were snobbish universities and not the sort of places that were likely to accept students from poorer and more disadvantaged backgrounds. That was a crying shame, not least because at least two of those who got in in place of Laura Spence were from ethnic minorities, and one of those later went on to get the top place in her final examination, above all other students across the university.
There is a danger in emphasising that Oxford and Cambridge are exclusive. I do not think that they are, although they are likely to be more exclusive if people say that they are because it will put off students who might otherwise be encouraged to go there.
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