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The Chairman: Order. This Chairman is of no party, Mr. Mudie. Mr. Mudie: Absolutely. When you are a rebel like me, you are in a similar position, Mr. Gale. The Conservative party has run universities in that fashion and kept my class and my people out, but I do not have any hatred; I just want a place at the table. I am perfectly happy with— Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman seems to be missing two fundamental points. The first is that there are Opposition Members from non-traditional backgrounds who have benefited from the opportunities that university provides. The second is that universities around the country have, for decades, offered people from ''his class'' the opportunity to better themselves, and they continue to do so. They should take credit for the success that they have had in doing so. Mr. Mudie: Sometimes in Committee there is a tendency to over-emphasise when responding to speeches made in such a fashion. I simply made the point that university admissions have never been a subject of contention or openly discussed. If I were to ask Committee members what the admissions policies are, they would reply that that would depend on the university. I may know Leeds, but I do not know Manchester—not that I would want to know Manchester, even less Sheffield—but setting those policies has been left up to each institution. They generally spend vast sums of public money as they wish. We are now asserting our right to know what on earth is happening, especially against the background of certain groups in society not being properly represented. Mr. Rendel: I am feeling a bit sore about the hon. Gentleman's accusation that any attempt to leave out parts of clauses may be an indication that we do not want to see better access for under-represented groups. As has already been mentioned, there is a problem over the definition of under-represented groups. Therefore, it is fair enough that we should test the Bill in terms of what it means. It could, for instance, mean that the group of people called Mudie were under-represented, but I do not think that that is quite what the Government intend. Column Number: 511 Mr. Mudie: I except the hon. Gentleman from criticism on those grounds. The issue of fair access, as listed in the Bill, deserves and needs padding out. We have had early signs of the battle that will take place when that is attempted. I speak on behalf of the people in my community. Some people in the Department have discovered the poor recently. It has put steel in their backbone. Steel is needed—though that does not apply to the Minister. When fair access is defined, I want to make sure that it is fair access. Some of the practices that we have seen over the decades should be put to rest, and deservedly so. James Purnell (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that very few people defend inequality of opportunity, but people's commitment to equality of opportunity is tested by the actions that they take. He asked about Manchester. My constituency has average GCSE results, but is significantly under-represented at university level. Putting that right is not social engineering—it is social justice. Mr. Mudie: I could not agree with my hon. Friend more. I would like to spend a few moments—I assure the Whip is will only be a few moments—looking at that issue. I was disappointed to read the references to access in the statutory guidance. I have attacked the Government on that matter. The Opposition threw away an opportunity there. In the second paragraph of the introduction, the Minister spells out that,
I was saddened when I read that. When we took office in 1997, we attempted to widen participation with a carrot. We put additional money on the table for any university that took youngsters with certain postcodes. As we have heard in the debate, that measure has signally failed—despite increased numbers since 1997. Only 1 per cent. of the increase was from my socio-economic class; my area. The privilege that has been defended will be defended fiercely, and I look for fierceness from the Government. If we believe in widening participation, the measures are not cover or window dressing for an exposed flank because we have included tuition fees, to which the second paragraph of that document refers. We have to do that because one of the attacks that we will face is that the increase in fees will damage widening participation, so we should do something about that. However, when it comes to the detail on approving an access agreement and the things that will be in it, I am slightly saddened by the weakness in that area. I want to touch on outreach when I have finished this point.
3.45 pmTo be fair to the Minister, when I look at the White Paper—much as I have criticised it as being just a few pages added to the central theme of variability—I have to eat some of my words. On admissions, there are two Column Number: 512 pages—pages 72 and 73—which make interesting reading. Paragraph 6.20 states:
the others
It goes on to say that the discussions and the various suggestions about admissions may
Sadly, that all seems to have disappeared from the legislation and the guidance document. The issue is not only applications, but admissions. Admissions are the true test. They are financed with public money, which should not be invested unless admissions are clearly being operated transparently and fairly across the various groups in society. The White Paper was strong, but the guidance document is weaker, and the Bill is as weak. I think every Committee member cares about the issue. If we are to have a united country and a happy country, it is necessary that everybody has equality of opportunity, and can participate in things, prosper, and get the best for their families. A certain group of people have not been able to do that. I want the Minister to reassure me that the measure is not just a cover for variable fees, that we will take it very seriously, and that the access agreement will cover applications and admissions and will involve some searching questions that will help us to achieve our objectives. Mr. Boswell: I accept, of course, the passion that the hon. Gentleman rightly brings to the subject. However, does he not appreciate that if the test is to be transparency and objectivity, as he wants, the danger is that it will be more difficult for academic admissions bodies to exercise their discretion, including in favour of the disadvantaged student? We may well end up in a situation in which they fall back on A-level performance because that is the only thing that is measurable and could get them past a judicial review or the intervention of the regulator. Mr. Mudie: I have been thrown somewhat by the fact that I am surrounded by Ministers. I do not know whether that is bad news for the Minister for Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education. Perhaps something happened at lunchtime. Am I supposed to move along the Bench? I have been asked a serious question, but there is a shortage of time. If we had time to discuss more clauses and an opportunity to push the matter, we could have an important debate, in which hon. Members would love to participate, especially Labour Members, who cannot join in for reasons known only to my hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg). I want to follow up on a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North. The outreach element has been criticised at times, but it is very important. I care passionately about my inner-city constituency and youngsters who do not have a chance, but I do not speak about them in order to get them a back door into university. The 50 per cent. target and even the widening participation scheme— Column Number: 513 the provision of funding that is related to postcodes—can be an offensive, patronising and unthinking way of widening participation. The worst thing that someone can do to a youngster is to send them to a university when they cannot cope. There are high drop-out rates and individuals are destroyed if they are put in a place with which they cannot cope. We see it happen here. Some people get sent to Parliament, cannot cope and it destroys their personality. University comes at a more vulnerable stage in a person's life.To have social engineering in that crude fashion does not do anyone any good, but outreach is important. If I compare Leeds university with Leeds Met university, I find that Leeds Met is wonderful in its widening participation and outreach activities. It is aware of all the different groups: Bangladeshi, Pakistani, white working class, those from the estates that no one ever goes to unless accompanied. Leeds university is remote in every way and is probably more representative of the older, more established universities. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North said something that needs to be embedded in the thinking of the Department for Education and Skills. It was accepted in an earlier debate that the ability of youngsters to get into university starts with where they are born and to whom they are born, how many books are in the house, how they are talked to, how they are played with and so on. The process starts at nursery, but we are beginning at the end. We are rightly berating universities for not doing more in the way of outreach. I would berate the primary schools for not reaching out into the nurseries, because links can be made if the primary school knows the youngster before he comes to that school. The great gap for working-class youngsters happens when they move from the comfortable primary school to the big, impersonal high school. When that happens, performance goes down. We all know about that in the education world, but what on earth do we do about it? The brighter kids fight their way back and the drop is not as fierce. A lot of the younger kids—those aged 12 to 14—leave; they just disappear out of the system. They are on the streets and we lose them for a long time.
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