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Mr. Francois: I thank the Minister for giving way as I appreciate that he has a lot to get through. I pick him up on the point about working-class children not necessarily being encouraged to go to certain universities. Does he accept that, in many cases, that is because the schools that those children attend are not geared up to encourage them in the right way and do not always give them the right guidance, which they might get at other schools? The responsibility lies heavily with the schools as well. Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman may have been out of the Room, but I accept that. I know from the experiences that he mentioned on an intervention that he comes from that sort of background and has first-hand knowledge of it. School support is essential, but the point that I am making is that because the Bill does not refer to everything that we are doing, it should not be argued that this provision is the only way that we will improve the social class mix. Chris Grayling: This is a factual request. The Bill refers to groups under-represented in higher education, and that has clearly been an issue at the heart of today's debate. Will he clarify what the Government mean by under-represented groups? Alan Johnson: Yes, I can. I was going to do that, but this is a perfect opportunity. I know that the term ''under-represented group'' has been mentioned not only in Committee but has caused concern in the sector. Let me offer Members a reassurance that, as the explanatory notes to the Bill make clear, the term is not intended to have a strict statistical interpretation. It is expressing, in legislative terms, what widening participation is about. We would not, for example, expect a plan to cover every under-represented group, nor would we expect one that had provisions about attracting applications from disabled students to contain an exhaustive list of those disabilities—reference to so many visually impaired students and so on. The institutions will be free to make their plans in broader terms, though if some wish to include more specific measures, they are free to do so. In the phrase
we mean under-represented relative to the situation that would be the case were access completely fair and based on ability to benefit. Let me make it clear that in this context we are talking about groups under- Column Number: 522 represented in higher education as a whole, rather than at a particular university. I wanted to place that on the record, and I am grateful for the opportunity to do so.Mr. Collins: The Minister has given a most helpful definition of ''group''. Could I just press him on what ''under-representation'' means? Does it refer to numbers of applications or numbers admitted? Alan Johnson: We mean under-represented in terms of applications. On the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North, may I point out that he was out of the Room when I was paying him compliments? He has returned now that I am about to explain why I cannot accept his amendments. That is probably the wrong way round. Mr. Rendel: I am surprised by the Minister's response to that intervention. I would have thought that one might well find that some of the more disadvantaged groups are not—in general, taking into account all universities—under-represented in applications, but they may still be very definitely under-represented in applications to the more prestigious universities. It is important for us to try to make sure that the more prestigious universities work towards getting a fair share of applications from those under-represented minority groups if they are currently under-represented, not only in terms of applications, but in terms of admissions. Alan Johnson: Well, if the hon. Gentleman is saying that the term ''under-represented groups'' should apply to admissions as well as to applications, I think he has a point. The specific question that I think I was being asked was about the remit of the director of access, which refers to applications and not admissions. The result of improving the socio-economic mix among applicants, we think, will be reflected in admissions. I know that it is an issue that Conservative Members have raised—what will happen in 10 years' time if that does not occur?—but the whole thrust of the Bill and everything we are doing is about improving that level of applications. There are other issues that will consider admissions, but that is what we are dealing with here. Mr. Rendel: There is a very important point here, and something might be going wrong. Is the Minister saying that if, for example, groups from Leeds are perfectly well represented in applications to the university sector as a whole, there is no need for any university to try to ensure that there are applications to that university from people from Leeds if they are under-represented in applications to that particular university? Alan Johnson: I understand, but I am trying not to get into the statistical argument that we have tried to ensure will not be implied by these words. Perhaps it would be helpful if I write to Committee members and set out how we believe that this will work. To turn to the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North, the reason for my asking him not to press them is not that they are not perfectly sensible and reasonable Column Number: 523 arguments. One argument that he makes in amendment No. 195 is that we ought to define ''fair access''. We believe that ''fair access'', like equal opportunities, is a term that people will understand. The hon. Member for Newbury also raised this issue. If we try to define the term, we will create more problems than we solve. Nowhere in the equal opportunities legislation is the term ''equal opportunities'' defined. We would have a problem if we went down that route.Mr. Boswell: Will the Minister give way? Alan Johnson: No, I will not. I might if there is time, but I want to ensure that other people get a chance to come in. ''Fair access'' is a well understood term. On amendment No. 193, which is also about equal opportunities, the director must have regard to equal opportunities anyway. When this Bill receives its Royal Assent, we expect that the Home Office will add to the schedule in the Race Relations Act 1976, for instance, that the director for fair access will come under that schedule. We cannot predict this until the Bill has gone through, however. It will have an obligation to uphold equal opportunities, and we do not need an amendment to do that. Amendment No. 194 is about rooting out covert discrimination. Most of the problems that we face are overt. If the regulator, once appointed, believes that there are issues of covert discrimination, the director will have the ability to address those problems.
4.30 pmThat brings me to my hon. Friend's amendment No. 268, which would remove the ability to issue statutory guidance. He implied that the regulator had to carry out the statutory guidance. We thought long and hard about whether it should be statutory or non-statutory guidance. We are sure that there has to be guidance, because the things we see in the letter from the Secretary of State are not the kind of things we can write into legislation, and traditionally we would not try to do so. We decided that there had to be statutory guidance, but the director of fair access is free to ignore it; it is only guidance. It would be a strange director who ignored it completely, but OFFA would also be strange if we did not give guidance from the centre, given that there are so many issues, not least around bursaries, towards which we want to direct the regulator. Amendment No. 221, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North, speaks about the director having unlimited powers; I think even my hon. Friend tabled it as a probing amendment. The director is allowed to do many things, but not, I hope, turning up at 3 o'clock in the morning at the vice-chancellor's door, saying that he wants to look at the books. I think my hon. Friend was getting at the social class mix, the finances and so on, all of which are covered elsewhere. The chief executive of HEFCE is the chief accounting officer and there are many provisions in place. There were provisions pre- Column Number: 524 Dearing; post-Dearing there are many more to ensure that the issues are transparent.Jonathan Shaw (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the draft guidelines are pieces of paper but what we will have is a person whose personality will greatly shape the atmosphere of the office and its relationship with vice-chancellors and universities? Let us consider the opposite, for example. Alan Johnson: I shall try not to. Let me remind my hon. Friend that the Bill gives the director the duty to have regard to any guidance from the Secretary of State. There is no question of the Secretary of State dictating to the director how he goes about his business—he simply cannot do that—but it is leaping to the other extreme to say that we should not issue statutory guidance, which is the proper thing to do. That is why I hope that the amendment will be withdrawn. The hon. Member for Hertsmere spoke to amendment No. 235. Mr. Allen: Before the Minister leaves my amendments—I thank him for his explanation—let me say that one of the fundamental points I was trying to get across to Ministers, officials and even university vice-chancellors was the need to be clear that we are leaving the impression that there can be the power of initiative from OFFA. The legislation reads and feels as though OFFA is almost entirely reactive. That was the thrust of the probing amendments, if I may mix my metaphors. Can the Minister reassure me? Alan Johnson: I understand that point but my hon. Friend should be reassured. There are other proactive measures from the NUS, HEFCE and others. The regulator does not have to replicate what they are doing, but he will have the ability to form his own judgments and to decide areas such as covert discrimination, which we have mentioned, that he might need to explore. I deal now with amendment No. 235, which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Hertsmere. I hope that I have made this point clear, but I will say it again: the director will have nothing whatever to do with admissions. I am sure hon. Members will have seen that there is no reference to involvement with admissions anywhere, either in the Bill or in the regulations to be made under it. Our guidance makes it plain that admissions do not fall within the director's remit. The hon. Gentleman quoted a letter but did not read out the part that says:
That makes the amendment unnecessary. We could set out other areas for which the director is not responsible: he is not responsible for course content or the setting of fees. Legislation should not list areas for which the regulator is not responsible, but to offer the hon. Gentleman more comfort I can say that institutions have and will retain complete autonomy over admissions standards and requirements. The hon. Gentleman mentioned EU students. He quoted Sir Howard Newby, the chief executive of Column Number: 525 HEFCE, at a conference this morning. However, he did not quote what he went on to say. Yes, there may be some extra students coming from the accession countries, but Sir Howard said that the numbers would be tiny—about 5,000 students this year in a total student population of 1 million. The hon. Gentleman made some fair points and did not link them to any scare stories, but we must be absolutely clear that Sir Howard was not saying there was a huge problem. He was merely pointing out one aspect of increased student numbers.In response to the hon. Member for Daventry, I must say that universities are obliged to abide by EU law and not discriminate against students from other EU states. They have the right to study here, as UK students have the right to study elsewhere in the EU. It is a matter for universities and is not affected by OFFA, although OFFA must abide by EU law. It could not, for instance, reject an access plan because the plan gave bursaries to Spanish or Portuguese students. The balance is right and there is no need to imply that OFFA upsets it.
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| ©Parliamentary copyright 2004 | Prepared 4 March 2004 |
