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Chris Grayling: Before I conclude the debate, I have a message for the hon. Member for Bury, North. He mentioned state and private schools and spoke about non-traditional backgrounds. He should look at the private schools in central London, where there are many young people who come from Asian families, for example. Those families beg, borrow and do not steal but think nothing of selling all their assets to get their Column Number: 530 kids through private school. They have a non-traditional background.Mr. Chaytor rose—
Chris Grayling: I will not give way, because I need to continue my remarks, but the hon. Gentleman and I can debate the matter separately. He should not miss out the point I have just made. This has been a mature, sensible and important debate. It is a shame that it has to be curtailed. This is an example of a situation where the knife does the Committee a great disservice. The debate has been characterised by thoughtful contributions on both sides. It is on a subject on which there is much commonality of aspiration between hon. Members of all parties, and on which a sensible set of amendments have been tabled. As it falls to me, as mover of the lead amendment, to set out what we vote on, and what not, I ask to press to a Division not only amendment No. 24, but amendment Nos. 268 and 195. We agree with the wording and aspirations of the two amendments tabled by the hon. Members for Chatham and Aylesford (Jonathan Shaw) and for Nottingham, North—that is a true example of cross-party consensus on these important issues. However, there is a key philosophical difference between members of different parties. That is not a difference in goals or aspiration, because we Conservative Members are not defenders of privilege; it is worth remembering that it was a Conservative Government that presided over the largest expansion of higher education in history. We differ from the Government and the Labour party in that we do not believe that we should pass laws to achieve the aims. We want universities to widen participation and take many of the steps that we have heard about today—and we have heard much about the best practice that already exists in our universities. We believe that it is fundamentally wrong to impose a law that, in terms of work load, will penalise the good performers as well as the bad, and will require universities to put together plans and review what they are doing with OFFA. We do not believe that that is the way to go about things. Passing laws does not sort out the issues that we have discussed. Better practice, voluntary effort, trusting our universities and setting a direction for them would be a much better way of doing that. The proposals are an unwarranted interference into what universities are doing, and one that we cannot and will not support. Nor, I am afraid do I accept the difference between access and admissions that the Minister set out, although I listened carefully to what he said. I do not dispute what he said; I am not accusing him of giving the Committee false information. However, he needs to remember one thing: the Government have no track record of keeping their promises in relation to the higher education sector. If the scheme does not work, and three, five or seven years into the process the plans that OFFA required universities to put in place have not widened participation, why should we believe that the Government do not intend to go further? I see nothing in the Bill that precludes that. Column Number: 531 The Bill contains powers to introduce regulations and, in my view, those powers quite clearly offer the Government an opportunity to interfere further. That remains a profound worry, not just for us, but for vice-chancellors. The Minister quoted vice-chancellors. He needs to remember that the public pronouncements of vice-chancellors to Ministers in a Government with a majority of 165 do not necessarily represent those vice-chancellors' true views on the subject. I think that there is much more uncertainty and unhappiness out there in the university world about what the Government are doing. I do not believe for a moment that vice-chancellors want the provisions; nor do I necessarily believe that they think that they provide the light touch that the Minister claims they do. I believe passionately that OFFA should not happen. If it must, the proposals for it should be tempered. I share all the aspirations of Government Members about giving a fair deal to people of ability, but passing new laws is not the way to do it. That is why we tabled the amendment: to temper what the Government are trying to do. That is why the Bill should be improved in Committee, and why we need to make a number of improvements by voting the amendments through. Question put, That the amendment be made:— The Committee divided: Ayes 6, Noes 16.
Division No. 10]
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The Chairman: The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell indicated a desire for a Division on two other amendments. Any hon. Member may seek a Division on any amendment that has been debated. These amendments have not been moved. Amendment No. 268 is in the name of the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford, who clearly has not had time to respond to the debate because of the nature of our proceedings this afternoon, or to indicate—other than to me privately, because I asked him to do so—whether he wished to press it. That amendment is solely in his name, so on this occasion I am not minded to put it to the Committee. However, having said that the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell has indicated his desire to see the matter voted on. I cannot bind Mr. Speaker in his selection when the Bill goes to Report but, by this record, I will send a clear indication that the hon. Gentleman has expressed that desire. It will be up to the hon. Gentleman to Column Number: 532 decide whether he wishes to table some similar amendment, and it will be up to Mr. Speaker to decide whether to call it.The hon. Gentleman also sought a Division on amendment No. 195. He made his remark while the hon. Member for Nottingham, North was out of the Room. Similarly, the hon. Member for Nottingham, North has not had a chance to discuss it. I do not propose to rule on that at this stage, because it appears later in the Bill and there will be ample opportunity for the hon. Members for Epsom and Ewell and for Nottingham, North to discuss whether it should be pressed. Mr. Hood or I will rule at the appropriate time on whether there will be a Division on that amendment. Strictly speaking, under the terms of the programme motion I should now put the Question on both of the clauses together. However, there are only two and I said at the start of this debate that I was prepared to admit what was effectively a stand part debate at the beginning. Therefore, exceptionally, I will put clauses 30 and 31 separately to dispatch them immediately without further debate. It being after Five o'clock, The Chairman put the Questions necessary under the terms of the programme resolution to complete the business. Motion made, and Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill. The Committee divided: Ayes 15, Noes 7.
Division No. 11]
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Clause 30 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Column Number: 533
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| Prepared 4 March 2004 | |
