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Mr. Deputy Speaker: That is not precisely a point of order for the Chair. [Interruption.] Order. Hon. Members who have participated in the debate will have now seen the letter's contents and the part that they have played in our discussions. It is up to all hon. Members to make up their minds about the whole position when they cast their votes.

Mr. Cash rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Time is running out. I shall not take any more points of order for the time being. I want the Under-Secretary to have the opportunity, in the few minutes that are left, to respond to the debate.

Mr. Lammy: If I may finish reading the Archbishop's letter, I shall then read the Lord Chancellor's letter. The Archbishop's letter continues:

"In the context 'decision' includes of course an act or omission, and extends to decisions made by proxies or others given powers by the Bill to decide whether or not a person is given life sustaining medical treatment. Any decision must be in a person's best interests.

 
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1577
 

I greatly welcome this undertaking which suitably worded on the face of the Bill will remove the substantial objection which I and many others have had."

The Lord Chancellor's letter to the Archbishop states:

"Further to our conversations we agreed that neither of us want the Mental Capacity Bill to authorise any decision where the motive is to kill, as opposed to relieving or preventing suffering, or ending treatment where the patient is in an irreversible coma. Any decisions must be in the patient's best interests.

I believe that this is clearly its effect, but we will seek to make it explicit in the Bill.

As you made clear to me on the telephone, and in your briefing note, the Bland decision is unaffected by the Bill."

We have sought not to affect the Bland decision and the 36 cases thereafter and we have had to continue dialogue for that reason. I am pleased that we have reached a form of words that enables us to table an amendment that will provide that, when a determination relates to life-sustaining treatment, the decision maker must not be motivated by the desire to bring about a person's death regardless of what is in that person's best interests. I am convinced that that fully covers the concerns that surround new clauses 1, 2 and 4.

Mr. Stephen Byers (Tyneside, North) (Lab): I understand that the Lord Chancellor's letter does not state that "decision" includes acts or omissions. Will my hon. Friend confirm that it is the Government's intention, in line with Archbishop Smith's letter, that "decision" will include acts and omissions?

Mr. Lammy: I can absolutely confirm that to my right hon. Friend. As I said, the dividing line between assisted suicide and acts of omission is the reason for the dialogue. We have ensured that our lawyers have worked together to achieve the outcome.

Ann Winterton: Will the Government include food and fluids, however delivered, in the definition of act of omission?

Mr. Lammy: I have said that we engaged in that dialogue with Archbishop Peter Smith. The Bland decision defines artificial nutrition and hydration as medical treatment, as the hon. Lady knows. Nevertheless, we want to make it clear in the Bill that doctors cannot withdraw treatments against the best interests of an individual and that acts of omission would be contrary to the intention behind the measure. We have tried to do that.

Mr. Hancock: Will the Minister explain why it was not possible to table a suitably worded amendment this afternoon, on which the Commons could have voted before the Bill goes to the House of Lords?

Mr. Lammy: There have been ongoing discussions, and we are dealing with a decision by the House of Lords. Government lawyers have disagreed with the Catholic Church in particular about the effect of new clauses 1 and 2. We have now concluded that the decision must take as its starting point the assumption that it is in the person's best interests for life to continue. Those making the decision must not be motivated—as
 
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1578
 
opposed to having the purpose—by the desire to bring about someone's death, regardless of what is in their best interests.

Jim Dobbin: This is very confusing for everybody. Despite the clarifications that the Minister has offered us, we are still confused. I accept what he said about omission, but will he make the position clear on the withdrawal of food and fluid, which is the essential point?

Mr. Lammy: I must say from the Dispatch Box that we are not seeking to undermine Bland. That is precisely what Archbishop Peter Smith and Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor said—the Bill does not seek to undermine Bland. We want to ensure, however, that under the Bill it is not possible for someone by omission to act to assist suicide or euthanasia. That is the position that we have reached and that is the nature of the discussion that we have had today.

It being half-past Three o'clock, Mr. Deputy Speaker, put the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 203, Noes 297.

Division No. 11 [3.30 pm


AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Battle, rh John
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)
Beith, rh A. J.
Bellingham, Henry
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cameron, David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Collins, Tim
Colman, Tony
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cotter, Brian
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Crausby, David
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Curry, rh David
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Dawson, Hilton
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dodds, Nigel
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Doughty, Sue
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Evans, Nigel
Fallon, Michael
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Fisher, Mark
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fox, Dr. Liam
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Galloway, George
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Harvey, Nick
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hunter, Andrew
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
MacDonald, Calum
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Mallon, Seamus
Mates, Michael
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Mercer, Patrick
Moore, Michael
Moss, Malcolm
Mudie, George
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
O'Hara, Edward
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Page, Richard
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Pollard, Kerry
Portillo, rh Michael
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Pugh, Dr. John
Redwood, rh John
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Rosindell, Andrew
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Singh, Marsha
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Wareing, Robert N.
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard

Tellers for the Ayes:

Miss Ann Widdecombe and
Ann Winterton


NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Bennett, Andrew
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, rh David
Blunt, Crispin
Borrow, David
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, Andy
Byrne, Liam (B'ham Hodge H)
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Caplin, Ivor
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Corston, rh Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Follett, Barbara
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith (Streatham)
Holmes, Paul
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hutton, rh John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, rh Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
McAvoy, rh Thomas
McCafferty, Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morris, rh Estelle
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Pearson, Ian
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Short, rh Clare
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, rh Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Watson, Tom
Watts, David
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Iain (Hartlepool)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek


Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Nick Ainger and
Paul Clark


Question accordingly negatived.

 
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1582
 

3.45 pm

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