---

Paul Holmes: We did discuss that example in Committee and it would indeed be helpful if the independent advocate or consultee were available to all relevant people.

Ms Rosie Winterton: In view of the time, perhaps I could take the hon. Gentleman back to the discussions that we had in Committee. I made it clear that we would consider how we could extend the role of the independent consultee in just the circumstances that the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) outlined. I also said that it was important that we consulted widely on that before deciding absolutely who else should be included with the unbefriended.

Paul Holmes: I welcome the Minister's reassurances on that point, but would the service be extended only in instances of family conflict about the advice given to family members, or would it be extended to those who are represented by friends and family but would benefit from the expertise of trained advocacy staff?
 
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1608
 

Ms Winterton: That is exactly why we said that we wanted to consult more widely on the issue. Several examples might arise of circumstances in which people would feel that it was appropriate for an independent consultee to be involved, without upsetting the principle that if people were reaching decisions amicably we would not intrude in family matters.

Paul Holmes: There is still a feeling in the Making Decisions Alliance that the family carer is in the best position to know the views and safeguard the best interests of the person involved, but the independent advocate— as a trained expert—is more likely to know how to navigate the system better. There would always be a complementary role for the advocate to add their expertise and training to facilitate the process, even when family and friends are present.

Ms Winterton: Does the hon. Gentleman also accept that in some circumstances people might think that that was intrusive? The presence of the advocate could cause difficulties in families who are in vulnerable situations. We have to strike the right balance when making such decisions.

Paul Holmes: The Minister is correct and the Committee received some evidence on that point from a Welsh organisation of families and carers, who perceived a danger of intrusiveness. However, I am sure that any Government organisation would take due care with that and not tread on people's toes.

New clause 5 tries to address two other concerns. One is that the Government version of an independent consultee is available only once it has been established that a person lacks capacity, but the experience of the existing independent advocates is that in many cases someone is thought to lack capacity, but is able to express their views when given the appropriate support. New clause 5 tries to extend the principle of independent advocacy to support people during the process of determining whether they lack capacity, as it will often turn out that they have capacity if given support.

The Making Decisions Alliance has lobbied the Government on the second concern. It sought and received Government confirmation that the overriding function of independent advocacy is to support the individual, rather than the decision maker. It is felt to be important that the Bill should be amended by new clause 5 to write that verbal clarification into the Bill.

Mr. Tom Clarke : I know that time is against us, but if my hon. Friend the Minister has the opportunity to confirm that instead of "consultee" the word "advocacy" will appear in the Bill, that would be very welcome.

Ms Rosie Winterton: I know how strongly my right hon. Friend feels about that matter and I can give him—

It being half-past Five o'clock, Madam Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 106, Noes 345.
 
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1609
 

Division No. 13 [5.30 pm


AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barrett, John
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)
Beith, rh A. J.
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Cameron, David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Cash, William
Chidgey, David
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cotter, Brian
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dodds, Nigel
Doughty, Sue
Evans, Nigel
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gidley, Sandra
Goodman, Paul
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Grieve, Dominic
Hancock, Mike
Harvey, Nick
Hawkins, Nick
Heath, David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Holmes, Paul
Horam, John (Orpington)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hunter, Andrew
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Mackay, rh Andrew
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Moore, Michael
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
Öpik, Lembit
Paisley, Rev. Ian
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Pollard, Kerry
Portillo, rh Michael
Pugh, Dr. John
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roe, Dame Marion
Sanders, Adrian
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shepherd, Richard
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Trend, Michael
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Walter, Robert
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil

Tellers for the Ayes:

Richard Younger-Ross and
Bob Russell


NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Amess, David
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Bennett, Andrew
Bercow, John
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, Andy
Byers, rh Stephen
Byrne, Liam (B'ham Hodge H)
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Colman, Tony
Conway, Derek
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Corston, rh Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Curry, rh David
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Follett, Barbara
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
Garnier, Edward
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hague, rh William
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hutton, rh John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, rh Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leigh, Edward
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, rh Thomas
McCafferty, Chris
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morris, rh Estelle
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Pearson, Ian
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Redwood, rh John
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Rosindell, Andrew
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, rh Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steen, Anthony
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watkinson, Angela
Watson, Tom
Watts, David
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wilkinson, John
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Iain (Hartlepool)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Nick Ainger and
Paul Clark


Question accordingly negatived.

 
14 Dec 2004 : Column 1612
 

Mr. Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour, pursuant to Order [this day.]

---