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Mr. Dismore: My hon. Friend has raised the issue of whether people would become richer under the Bill. It is important to emphasise the fact that Tony Martin would still have been convicted under the measure. As for the difference between civil and criminal law, in civil law the test is the balance of probabilities, but a higher threshold of grossly disproportionate action applies. In the criminal law, the test is reasonableness, but there is a much higher threshold of proof beyond all reasonable proof. To a certain extent, therefore, the reform of civil law levels the playing field.
Tom Levitt: My hon. Friend, with his knowledge of the law, which he often offers to the House, speaks with far more authority than I could.
One issue that has not been raised is the danger that the Bill would pose to the police if it were to come into force. Just before Christmas, my wife and I heard something in the street outside where we live in London. We listened carefully and there were certainly sounds of someone trying to get access to the house next door. When we heard our next-door neighbour's window being knocked in and broken, my wife called the police, and I tried to monitor what was going on by looking through the peephole in the door. Because someone was trying to gain entry to that house, it would have been reasonable for the householder to have attacked the intruder. They could have done so almost without restraint if the Bill were in force.
As it happened, the intruder to the house was actually a police officer. If the housebound lady who lived in the house had been tooled up ready to defend herself, perhaps with a firearm of some sort—that would not be unreasonable under the terms of the Bill—the police officer entering the house could have been placed in very great danger. I believe that the Bill would make people more ready to hold weapons ready for use in their house, more ready to use them and more ready to face
4 Feb 2005 : Column 1147
accidental consequences such as endangering the life of police officers who may well have highly legitimate and authorised reasons for wanting to enter a house without the householder's knowledge.
In this case, the lady in question had inadvertently pressed her alarm that summoned assistance. She had not realised that she had done so and therefore did not expect the police to arrive. The surprise arrival of a police officer through her window could have put that police officer in great danger.
Mr. Dismore: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point because such a real case has arisen. Kenneth Noye shot a police officer, and where would he stand under the Bill? I suspect that he would have had protection, because the police officer would, I suppose, be deemed to have been a trespasser.
David Maclean (Penrith and The Border) (Con) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put:—
Question put, That the Question be now put:—
The House divided: Ayes 140, Noes 21.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Bell, Sir Stuart
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Cameron, David
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James (Beverley)
Curry, rh David
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mark
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Portillo, rh Michael
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Dame Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Soames, Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Weir, Michael
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown and
Mr. John Randall
NOES
Beard, Nigel
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Bryant, Chris
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Cohen, Harry
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, Barry
Goggins, Paul
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Hendrick, Mark
Hill, rh Keith (Streatham)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
McCabe, Stephen
McIsaac, Shona
Soley, Clive
Watson, Tom
Woolas, Phil
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Andrew Dismore and
Mr. Stephen Pound
Question accordingly agreed to.
4 Feb 2005 : Column 1148
Question put accordingly, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
The House divided: Ayes 130, Noes 4.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Cameron, David
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James (Beverley)
Curry, rh David
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mark
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Loughton, Tim
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Portillo, rh Michael
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Dame Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Soames, Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown and
Mr. John Randall
NOES
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Corbyn, Jeremy
Hopkins, Kelvin
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Peter Luff and
Mr. Crispin Blunt
Question accordingly agreed to.
4 Feb 2005 : Column 1149
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee, pursuant to Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of Bills).
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