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Sir Patrick Cormack: The hon. Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) speaks with great eloquence and fervour. I do not think that any individual has the right indefinitely to deface the centre of a great capital city, which is what we have seen over the past three years with Mr. Haw. Obviously, the hon. Gentleman sympathises with him and I do not sympathise with the cause that Mr. Haw is seeking to espouse, but that is not the point. What the Government are seeking to do is, basically, in line with the Procedure Committee's recommendations and it is right.

I hope that the Minister will think again about both the time and the distance. I also hope that she will think very carefully about Trafalgar square. As one who stood shoulder to shoulder with Michael Foot protesting on the subject of Bosnia—the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) was there with us, too—I know the value of protests in Trafalgar square. I have spoken at a number of protests on the release of Soviet Jews, Bosnia and other causes, some of which would not endear themselves to the hon. Gentleman. Some might. Again, that is wholly irrelevant.
7 Feb 2005 : Column 1301

Trafalgar square is a time-honoured place where people can and should be able to demonstrate. It is very important that Trafalgar square be exempted from such regulation. It is important that the time is brought down to 48 hours from six days. That is entirely reasonable. It is important that we have English miles in the Bill and not kilometres and that we have English yards because, in that way, we will get a sensible solution that I hope most people could, perhaps with a degree of reluctance, support.

It is a pity that we have come to this pass but, Mr. Speaker, you know as well as anyone in the Chamber how disrupted the life of Parliament square has been over the past two years and how it has been defaced. The Government have taken a proper step in the right direction. They still need to correct themselves to a degree. I would like the Minister to respond briefly and to assure us that she will listen very carefully on those points about time and distance in particular.

Glenda Jackson: The hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) spoke of the defacing of Parliament square. I have heard people say that no such demonstrations as we have seen for the past three years should be allowed in Parliament square because it is a world heritage site. It is a world heritage site not because of that rather scruffy square of grass or the statues at its corners, and it is certainly not surrounded by buildings of overwhelming architectural excellence, with the exception possibly of Westminster abbey. It is a centre that the whole world comes to visit because of what has happened in this Parliament, and certainly what happened in Westminster abbey.

This building is a symbol to the world of a democratic system whereby the rights of the individual were placed above those of, in the first instance, a sovereign, and, in the second instance, a state. Westminster abbey is the great symbol of Christianity with its call to all of us to have compassion for those who are the lowest in our esteem. We should be—

It being five and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings, Mr. Speaker put forthwith the question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [3 February].

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House proceeded to a Division.

Mr. Salmond : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the amendments that we are being asked to vote on are unusual. I am speaking from the Government Benches, because the amendments stand in the names of both Mr. Secretary Clarke and Opposition Members. The Government's last-minute changes to the legislation have coincided with Opposition amendments. In the case of amendment No. 178, for example, the Government's headlong retreat from aggravated trespass in Scotland has coincided with an amendment designed to remove powers from the Government. My point of order is simple: given the nature of the amendments, which indicates the last-minute, spatchcocked nature of the legislation, is there anything in your powers to prevent last-minute
7 Feb 2005 : Column 1302
amendments making it impossible for hon. Members to submit amendments to legislation? The Government's programme motion makes it impossible for those matters even to be debated. Do you have the discretion to stop that abuse of legislation, which we are seeing this evening?

Mr. Speaker: I am not used to seeing the hon. Gentleman on the Government Benches. He has raised the question of the programme motion, which is a matter for the House and not for the Speaker. My clear understanding of the rules is that any hon. Member can put his name to an amendment. If that is a Minister of the Crown, the amendment becomes a Government amendment. It is just like the trade union movement—there is such a thing as custom and practice, which we are dealing with here.

The House having divided: Ayes 299, Noes 86.

Division No. 74
[10.05 pm


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Bercow, John
Berry, Roger
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Butterfill, Sir John
Byrne, Liam (B'ham Hodge H)
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Corston, rh Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Dodds, Nigel
Donaldson, Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Fabricant, Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flook, Adrian
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hunter, Andrew
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, rh Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kennedy, rh Jane (Wavertree)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Lammy, David
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
McAvoy, rh Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
MacDougall, John
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Rosemary
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Meacher, rh Michael
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Morley, Elliot
Morris, rh Estelle
Mudie, George
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Paice, James
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Rosindell, Andrew
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, rh Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stringer, Graham
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Watson, Tom
Watts, David
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wiggin, Bill
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Iain (Hartlepool)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Jim Murphy and
Margaret Moran


Allan, Richard
Baker, Norman
Baron, John (Billericay)
Barrett, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Bruce, Malcolm
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Chope, Christopher
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cotter, Brian
Cummings, John
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Dawson, Hilton
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Etherington, Bill
Ewing, Annabelle
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Foster, Don (Bath)
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Grogan, John
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Heath, David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Holmes, Paul
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Lansley, Andrew
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Llwyd, Elfyn
McDonnell, John
McLoughlin, Patrick
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Maude, rh Francis
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Norman, Archie
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
Öpik, Lembit
Pugh, Dr. John
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Salmond, Alex
Sanders, Adrian
Sedgemore, Brian
Selous, Andrew
Shepherd, Richard
Short, rh Clare
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Trickett, Jon
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Viggers, Peter
Wareing, Robert N.
Waterson, Nigel
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Whittingdale, John
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Younger-Ross, Richard

Tellers for the Noes:

Bob Russell and
Sir Robert Smith

Question accordingly agreed to.

7 Feb 2005 : Column 1305

Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.

Mr. Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.

Motion made, and Question proposed, that new clauses 19 to 24, 8, 9, 15, 16 and 17 be added to the Bill.

The House divided: Ayes 263, Noes 88.

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