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Lady Hermon (North Down) (UUP): Will the Minister clarify once and for all whether clause 1 will apply to school premises in Northern Ireland? Clause 24 is ambiguous about whether some or all of the provisions will extend to Northern Ireland. Will she put on the record that every school premises—as she has explained this evening, "school premises" is widely defined—includes school premises in Northern Ireland?
Caroline Flint: I thank the hon. Lady for giving me an opportunity to set the record straight. I am pleased to say that clause 1 will apply to Northern Ireland, as will clauses 2, 4, 6, 8 and 21. Clauses 4 and 6 mirror clauses 3 and 5, so they have an identity in their own right. I agree that the wording of clause 24 is not as clear as we might all want, but sometimes we are all hostage to the legalistic wording used in such legislation. Many clauses amend existing legislation, and where the scope and range of that legislation applies to Northern Ireland, those changes will apply to Northern Ireland too. I reassure her that the measures in clause 1, which attempt to create safer zones around schools, will apply to Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon: Earlier, I referred to a letter that I received from the Northern Ireland Office. I must apologise, because it was actually a written answer from the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, who is responsible for this particular subject. On 24 January 2005, he stated:
"I have sought and obtained approval for the extension to Northern Ireland of the following provisions in the Drugs Bill".
He listed several points, including the
"Creation of aggravating circumstances in which a dealer will face an enhanced sentence—such as dealing near a school or using young persons as couriers".—[Official Report, 25 January 2005; Vol. 430, c. 302W.]
Given the clear import of that reply, will the Minister reflect on making it clear in the Bill that the provisions extend to Northern Ireland? The Police Service of Northern Ireland must apply those provisions, which are not clear.
Caroline Flint: Clauses 1 and 2 amend the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and therefore apply to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It is not necessary to specify Northern Ireland because we are simply amending existing legislation, which already applies to Northern Ireland and Scotland. I hope that that makes it clear that Northern Ireland is not excluded from the provisions that deal with the vicinity of schools and the possible use of children and young people as couriers by drug peddlers and dealers. I hope that that reassures the hon. Lady and conveys a strong message to her local community.
Let me be clear. Premises that are occupied solely by a teacher or a caretaker as a dwelling and are on or in the vicinity of other school premises that children and young people use would be caught by the measure. Government amendment No. 17 therefore defines school premises more closely and exempts from that definition land occupied solely as a dwelling by a person who is employed at the school. It is not unusual for buildings that are used solely as a dwelling by a member of staff to be distinguished in legislation from other school premises.
Amendment No. 3 defines "in the vicinity" as
"(a) within one mile of the school; or . . . (b) within five miles of the school when on a route known to be used by pupils accessing the school; or . . . (c) on a vehicle used by local education authorities to transport children to school."
The question of what constitutes "in the vicinity" was thoroughly aired in Committee and I have, perhaps rather belatedly, written to the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham about the matter. I am concerned about the definition and I held extensive discussions about whether it was possible to include one in the Bill. After much discussion, I am worried that attempting a definition runs the risk of undermining our purpose. A definition could exclude a set of circumstances that may currently be difficult to foresee or a position that arises from local circumstances, which a court might want to include.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I want to raise a point of clarity that was not made in Committee about definitions of vicinity, especially in view of Government amendment No. 9, in relation to school athletics and sports facilities that are used by adults—through community use—and children, for example on a Saturday morning. Am I right that, if the measure were passed, this country would have the strongest anti-drugs-in-sport legislation anywhere in the western world? Anyone who dealt in performance-enhancing drugs on a sports field owned by a school—that applies to all athletics facilities and most rugby and football fields in my constituency—would be liable for conviction for aggravated supply. Will my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary consider whether such a provision could eventually be extended to cover professional sports, such as those football teams that are playing tonight?
Caroline Flint:
My hon. Friend is right that the Bill covers sports activities that take place on school
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premises—playing fields, sports halls or facilities that are open to community use. As long as young people who are under 18 are engaged in those activities, clause 1 will apply. My hon. Friend mentioned performance-enhancing drugs. If they were illegal, the clause would apply in the circumstances that he outlined. I shall draw his final point about other sporting activities to the attention of my hon. Friends in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.
John Mann: My hon. Friend will recall that I was somewhat sceptical about the parental fear of drug dealing outside schools and I gave examples from my constituency. I believed that the Government risked falling into the trap of overplaying a fear that was simply that and not a reality. My hon. Friend will be pleased that I am convinced by her arguments about tackling drugs in sport. Will she consider how best to publicise this to the sporting world? The issue did not come up in Committee, but it could represent a significant change in dealing with drugs in sport.
6.45 pm
Caroline Flint: I will think about the issue that my hon. Friend has raised. It will be important to make the provisions of the Bill well known, should it become law. That is an ongoing challenge for us, with regard not only to the new provisions but to the fact that record amounts of money are now being spent on all aspects of dealing with drugs, including prevention, treatment and building capacity. I know that my hon. Friend has played a huge role in this in his constituency, which I hope has been helped by the Government's determination to bear down locally on what can be achieved if people work together better to identify the problems and use the funds that we are providing to tackle them wisely. I will think about what he has said.
I would also like to point out to my hon. Friend that a conference is being held this week on the positive futures scheme, which we in the Home Office are funding, as well as Sport England and others. The scheme identifies young people who are at risk of drug involvement or who have already become involved with drugs. It is a sports-based scheme, and 50,000 young people have gone through it so far, with tremendous results. An awareness of the dangers of drugs—not only heroin and crack cocaine but performance-enhancing drugs—is an important part of the role of sports coaches, alongside providing brilliant sports coaching.
Mrs. Gillan: The Minister is showing a great deal of concern for children by introducing this legislation, and we are now being led down the sporting route. She has also embarked on looking at "what if" scenarios. Will she clarify what would happen if children from a school were invited to play sport at a private sporting facility, for example, or a well-known football ground? If the children were going there as part of their school activities, would those premises be covered by the Bill? If not, why not? Why will the Minister not consider our amendment to make the clause apply to places where children congregate?
Caroline Flint:
I am going to address that issue in a moment, but the short answer to the hon. Lady's question is that the provision would not apply to such
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facilities. The Bill covers school premises, and I have already attempted to explain what we understand by that term. The provision would capture the scenario that my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) outlined, but it would not apply to that suggested by the hon. Lady. I shall explain later our views on places where young people congregate and on other places that have been mentioned, including community centres. We are trying to focus on what is practical and what we can actually deliver.
What constitutes "in the vicinity" could vary from location to location. For example, a dealing site might be close to a school—and let us not forget that we are talking not only about someone dealing directly to young people, but about the exposure of young people to drug-related activities going on around them. An aggravating factor may already be taken into account by the courts during sentencing in cases involving dealing directly to a vulnerable person, including those under 18. These provisions are an attempt to tackle the problem of young people on school premises having to walk past or be exposed to dealing activities that might not directly involve them. This is about the risk of exposure, and the creation of safer zones around those areas.
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