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House of Commons

Wednesday 23 February 2005

The House met at half-past Eleven o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

NORTHERN IRELAND

The Secretary of State was asked—

Grammar Schools

1. Sir Teddy Taylor (Rochford and Southend, East) (Con): What percentage of secondary school children in Northern Ireland attend grammar schools; and what the percentage was 10 years ago. [216991]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Barry Gardiner): In 2004–05, 41 per cent. of secondary school children attended grammar schools compared with 40 per cent. in 1994–95. As the number of secondary school age children continues to decline, the proportion of pupils with grades C and D admitted to grammar schools is expected to continue to increase, so while the actual enrolment figures may remain relatively static, the percentage figures for those attending grammar schools could rise further.

Sir Teddy Taylor: As the Northern Ireland grammar schools have provided unique opportunities for able children from disadvantaged areas to break through the class barriers, and as Northern Ireland has achieved hugely successful education results, why cannot the Government leave the system alone? Does the Minister not accept that abolishing the selective tests will basically undermine the whole principle on which the grammar schools have been created and have achieved so much for the people of Northern Ireland?

Mr. Gardiner: The hon. Gentleman will know that only 7 per cent. of children from poor or disadvantaged backgrounds go to grammar schools, unlike the rest of the post-primary sector where 29 per cent. of children from disadvantaged backgrounds attend the secondary school sector, so to say that that is the way through for bright children from poor backgrounds really is a myth. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to suggest that only 7 per cent. of those children were capable and intelligent and were therefore able to prosper from a good education. We must ensure that
 
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children from precisely those disadvantaged areas have the educational opportunities that he rightly insists should be there for some.

Mr. Iain Luke (Dundee, East) (Lab): My hon. Friend will recognise that this is an issue on which I have written to Ministers before, but does he agree that the controversy that surrounds it clearly underlines the need for constructive working by all parties in Northern Ireland to ensure an early return of an Assembly there so that the local issue of education is dealt with in Northern Ireland itself?

Mr. Gardiner: My hon. Friend is entirely right to point out that it would be a good deal better were these decisions being taken by the Assembly. Of course, this matter came from the Assembly. It was initiated by the Assembly, and in that sense we are continuing work that was begun under that Administration.

Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): The Minister wants to scrap academic selection in Northern Ireland. Does he think that the majority of people there support that policy?

Mr. Gardiner: The hon. Gentleman will know as well as I do that the responses from the household survey were mixed—58 per cent. of people wanted to get rid of the 11-plus and 64 per cent. of people said that for grammar schools academic selection in some form might be retained. Equally, he will also know that 77 per cent. of parents—a figure less often quoted—said that they thought that the transfer from primary to post-primary should be by parental preference, and that is what we are trying to achieve.

Mr. Lidington: The Minister knows that the point of principle at stake here is not the 11-plus or an alternative method of academic selection, but the Government's determination to get rid of academic selection altogether. If the Minister is confident that he has public support, why does he not put it to the test and give parents in Northern Ireland the same right to a vote on grammar schools that the Government have given to parents in England? Why is he running so scared of the views of parents in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Gardiner: The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. We are not running scared of anybody. In fact, on 28 January we launched a public consultation and 14,000 consultation documents have already gone out, precisely to seek the views of the public and of education professionals on a wide range of options available for transfer.

Peace Process

2. Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): If he will make a statement on the peace process. [216992]

3. Mr. Siôn Simon (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): When he last met Irish Government Ministers to discuss the Northern Ireland peace process. [216993]
 
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The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Paul Murphy): The Government's ultimate goal remains the restoration of an inclusive power-sharing Executive in Northern Ireland. However, both we and the Irish Government are clear that the main obstacle to achieving this is the Provisional IRA's continued involvement in criminal activity.

I keep in close contact with the Irish Government to   discuss ways of moving the process forward and will be meeting them again next week at the British-Irish intergovernmental conference to review the position.

Mr. Carmichael: May I suggest to the Secretary of State that the identification by the Irish Justice Minister of Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams as members of the IRA council alters the political landscape in Northern Ireland, that our priority in that altered landscape should be the promotion of democracy and accountability, and that we should therefore be willing to consider new options, including the recall of the Assembly, without Sinn Fein in the Executive if it cannot meet the required standards?

Mr. Murphy: As I said earlier, the Government's ultimate aim must be that which the people of Northern Ireland expressed when they voted for the Good Friday agreement and an inclusive Executive. However, the hon. Gentleman makes a valid point that the trust and confidence simply does not exist at the moment in Northern Ireland to establish that inclusive Executive. We have examined alternative ways of allowing people in Northern Ireland to increase the accountability of Ministers and ensure that the democratic deficit is tackled. However, any solution requires cross-community support from nationalists and Unionists. That is not always easy to obtain.

Mr. Simon: My right hon. Friend knows that communities such as Erdington and Kingstanding in my constituency, which has one of the highest concentrations of people of Irish origin anywhere in Britain, in a city that marked before Christmas the 30th anniversary of one of the worst and most despicable terrorist outrages in Britain, feel profoundly powerless and frustrated at such times. What promises can he offer such diaspora communities of two steps forward when all they seem to hear about from London, Dublin and Belfast is one big step back?

Mr. Murphy: There is no point in trying to underestimate the difficulties that we currently face in the process through the Northern bank robbery and continued criminality on the part of the IRA. However, it is also important to look at the bigger picture, examine what has happened in the past decade and realise that Northern Ireland is a better place in which to live and work. For example, the latest employment figures in Northern Ireland are the best ever. More people are in work there than ever before. People enjoy a standard of living and quality of life that they never previously experienced. We cannot underestimate the problems with the political process but we must appreciate the enormous progress that has been made in Northern Ireland in the past decade.
 
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Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) (UUP): Does the Secretary of State realise that the position that he has adopted is tantamount to saying that the IRA will have a veto over the creation or resumption of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the implementation of the agreement? If he continues to adopt that position, there is no prospect of progress. Indeed, he will have to move from it before we have any chance of progress. Does he not also ignore the fact that the people who supported the agreement in the referendum voted for parties to adopt peaceful and democratic means, which Sinn Fein and its linked organisations refuse to do? The agreement provided for consequences in such circumstances, but the Secretary of State is obstructing them. Is it not time that he thought the matter through clearly?

Mr. Murphy: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman is accurate when he says that I have adopted a position in the rigid fashion that he suggests. He knows that I said yesterday that we have ruled nothing out or in and that we are considering all the different options. I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman knows much more than me about the difficulties of making something work after the restoration of an Assembly. I do not say for one second that an Assembly should not be restored in Northern Ireland if we believed that we could get such a body to work and to produce an Executive that would be representative of the entire community in Northern Ireland, with nationalists as well as Unionists on it. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we have not ruled out the different suggestions that he and other political parties in Northern Ireland have made in recent weeks. However, none of us must forget that the central obstacle is the problem of criminal activity by the IRA. We have to deal with that. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be reassured that we have not ruled out his suggestion or others that might be presented in the House and during the political talks in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh) (SDLP): Does the Secretary of State agree that the single greatest obstacle preventing criminality from being dealt with is the inability to protect people who want to give evidence but cannot because of the paramilitary might that surrounds them? Does he agree that while other things are not possible at present, one thing is possible and should be required of every political party that will be involved in any future negotiations? Should not all those parties now join the Policing Board, so that the Police Service can protect the only people who can end criminality—the people on the ground?

Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is entirely right to point out that intimidation of witnesses is a major problem in Northern Ireland. He was referring to a specific case in Belfast, and I could not agree more with all that he has said about it. I also agree that it would be right for every political party in Northern Ireland to accept the policing arrangements recommended by Patten and the Good Friday agreement, and that that is ultimately the best answer in policing terms.

I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend's party, for accepting the new policing arrangements. That took great courage, and has shown over the past few years how important it is for Catholics to join the police force and become members of the Policing Board.
 
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Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The Secretary of State will know of the plight of innocent victims of terrorist violence, many of whom sense that during the peace process they have not been given enough recognition and support. He will also recall that both during and since the negotiations, the Democratic Unionist party has argued for the establishment of a victims commission to champion the cause and the rights of victims of terrorist violence. Does he now recognise the merits of that idea?

Mr. Murphy: Yes, I do. I know that the hon. Gentleman and his party, along with other parties and organisations, individuals and groups in Northern Ireland, have investigated the possibility of such a commission, and I see great merit in it. I hope to be able to make a statement to the House shortly. I also agree with the hon. Gentleman that the work done by victims groups throughout Northern Ireland is enormously important in bringing about reconciliation. I visited the Wave trauma centre not long ago, and was deeply impressed by what I saw.

Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): Does the Secretary of State agree that if the republican movement wants democrats of any persuasion or background to start taking it seriously, it might begin by dropping its incredible claim to be able to decide whether or not a particular action is a crime, and then advise republicans—in undiluted language rather than weasel words—that if they have evidence connected with criminal activity, and in particular with the brutal murder that took place in Belfast the other week, they should go to the police and give the Police Service of Northern Ireland whatever evidence they can provide so that the killers and their accomplices can be detected, arrested and brought to trial?

Mr. Murphy: Yes, I agree with all that. The hon. Gentleman echoed points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) about the importance of ensuring that people go to the PSNI and give them all the information that they have, so that the murderers involved in that particularly horrendous case in Belfast can be apprehended.

It is important for the words used to be much clearer, and for people in the community we are discussing to go to the police. I am sure the House will agree, however, that it is also important to recognise that there may well be a shift in the traditional support for republicans in Northern Ireland, because people are fed up with intimidation, thuggery and savagery on the streets of Belfast and other cities and towns in Northern Ireland.

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