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Mr. Grieve: The House will have heard the comments and representations that were made in the points of order. The programme motion prevents proper consideration of a most important Bill. Irrespective of hon. Members' views on the measure, I urge them to take back control of our proceedings and vote against the motion.
4.9 pm
Mr. Mark Oaten (Winchester) (LD): In the short time left, I will simply say that, in our Second Reading debate last Wednesday, we saw Parliament at its best, but what is taking place this afternoon shows us Parliament at its worst. The problem is that the letter from the Home Secretary makes critical changes to the Bill, which will undermine the debate on the first group of amendments and make nonsense of the process that we shall go through in the next few hours.
Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): The hon. Gentleman says that we are seeing Parliament at its worst, but I believe that the responsibility for this state of affairs lies with the Government, not with Parliament.
Mr. Oaten: Unfortunately, though, this reflects on all of us, whether it is this Government or any other who have proposed the measures that we are considering.
I suggest to the Minister that we need not have reached this situation in the first place. This problem has existed for three years and the Liberal Democrats have consistently pointed out that the Government should have tackled it during that time, rather than leaving it until a point at which, because of a Law Lords
28 Feb 2005 : Column 657
judgment, we are faced with such a short time scale. It cannot be right that we have to deal with such critical issues in such a short period of time.
These are not small matters. We shall have only two hours in which to discuss whether a judge or a politician takes certain decisions, although the Home Secretary is going to help us out with that later. We shall probably have only two hours in which to discuss the standard of proof. We might have only an hour to consider whether evidence can be heard in certain situations and a similar time to discuss what the control orders will involve. It cannot be right to rush such fundamental issues through in six hours.
I am sure that all hon. Members want to try to resolve this issue in a way that will prevent a terrorist attack from taking place in this country, while ensuring that we defend our strong principles of justice. We are not being allowed to get into that debate this afternoon or to do justice to that difficult balancing act. I have two questions for the Minister, and I hope that she will have time to respond to them.
Sir Patrick Cormack: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise to the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten) for interrupting him. As it has been indicated that the official Opposition would be prepared to allow this debate to continue on Wednesday, would you accept a manuscript amendment to the programme motion to enable that to happen?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: No. We have only three minutes of the debate on the programme motion left, and I could not accept such an amendment. If there is any question of more time being provided by an attempt being made through the usual channels to do so, that is how it will have to be done. If the programme motion is accepted, we shall move on to a debate that might be determined by the hours set out by the programme motion or might be extended by decisions taken elsewhere. At this stage, however, the Chair does not know what will happen in that regard.
Mr. Oaten: I hope that the Home Secretary will confirm that he will come to the Floor of the House to explain his letter, so that we have a proper chance to debate that matter later. It is totally wrong that four days have been allowed for this debate in another place, while this House has only two. We find that unacceptable, and we shall vote against the programme motion.
4.13 pm
Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con):
The hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten) has made most of the points that I wanted to make, but I want to add a further comment to the Minister. We have been told that we must rush this Bill through. That is simply not correct, because it is not necessary to have new legislation of this kind in place by 13 March. The truth is that the detainees in Belmarsh could be let out tomorrow without there being any danger whatever to the state. The point has already been made that they are not going to be subject to house arrest. They are going to be placed under surveillance and they can be kept under surveillance without any new legislation being passed, so there is no pressing need for the Bill.
28 Feb 2005 : Column 658
If there were a pressing need for this legislation, it would be the fault of the Government, because they have had since last December to contemplate the terms of the House of Lords judgment. They have had more than a year to reflect on the contents of the report prepared by Lord Newton. The fact that we are where we are now is solely and exclusively the fault of the Government. What they are doing is a disgrace. It is profoundly undemocratic, it undermines the liberties of each and every one of us, and this House should have no part of it. I urge the House to recover its authority over its own proceedings, and to reject this guillotine.
4.14 pm
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): It is worth noting, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the amendments and new clauses already referred to were selected by you as being worthy of debate. There should be no doubt that the Chair told the House "Here are the matters that we believe are worthy of debate: 13 distinct groups of amendments—
It being forty-five minutes after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 83A (8).
The House divided: Ayes 278, Noes 185.
AYES
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barron, rh Kevin
Beard, Nigel
Begg, Miss Anne
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Boateng, rh Paul
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burnham, Andy
Byers, rh Stephen
Byrne, Liam (B'ham Hodge H)
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Colman, Tony
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Corston, rh Jean
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Donohoe, Brian H.
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith (Streatham)
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, rh Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kelly, rh Ruth (Bolton W)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
King, Andy (Rugby)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, rh Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
MacDougall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mallaber, Judy
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot
Morris, rh Estelle
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pound, Stephen
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Sarwar, Mohammad
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stringer, Graham
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Wilson, rh Brian
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Iain (Hartlepool)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Tom Watson and
Ms Bridget Prentice
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baldry, Tony
Baron, John (Billericay)
Beith, rh A. J.
Bennett, Andrew
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Best, Harold
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Breed, Colin
Bruce, Malcolm
Burns, Simon
Burnside, David
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cameron, David
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Carmichael, Alistair
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cousins, Jim
Cran, James (Beverley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Curry, rh David
Dalyell, Tam
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dobson, rh Frank
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan, Peter (Galloway)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Evans, Nigel
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Fisher, Mark
Flight, Howard
Follett, Barbara
Forth, rh Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Francois, Mark
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gill, Parmjit Singh
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Hague, rh William
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Hermon, Lady
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hogg, rh Douglas
Holmes, Paul
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Jack, rh Michael
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Lilley, rh Peter
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McDonnell, John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Maude, rh Francis
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moore, Michael
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paisley, Rev. Ian
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Portillo, rh Michael
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Roe, Dame Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Salmond, Alex
Sanders, Adrian
Sedgemore, Brian
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Short, rh Clare
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Soames, Nicholas
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Wareing, Robert N.
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Weir, Michael
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Wishart, Pete
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Sir Robert Smith and
Mr. David Ruffley
Question accordingly agreed to.
28 Feb 2005 : Column 662
Mr. Garnier: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am not sure whether we are yet in Committee or whether you are still in your role as a Deputy Speaker of the House, but in either guise, will you allow me to read a few brief lines from the letter sent by the Home Secretary to my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary, which I have now had a chance to look at? I will be quick. It states:
"The new procedure for derogating control orders will be as follows. The Secretary of State would make an ex parte application to the High Court for an order. The application would be heard by the judge as quickly as possible . . . The order would be subject to automatic referral to the full court for an inter-partes hearing".
To me, that amounts to a wrecking amendment by letter. If that is true and that is the Government's intention, clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4 of the Bill are otiose—
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