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Mr. Clarke: To be candid, although I understand the argument that the identical process should extend to non-derogated orders as to derogated orders I do not accept it for the reasons that have been set out. My hon. Friend's concern that there would be some process of slide, whereby a combination of non-derogated deprivations that added up to a derogation would slip past the courts and procedures, is simply wrong.
Mr. Clarke: I have considered the best course of action to follow when so many Members want to intervene, and I shall now come to the end of my remarks at this stage, to enable proper speeches and contributions to be made by Members who wish to do so.
I have set out clearly a course of action that responds to many, many of the issues that were raised. It deals with the fact that we have to make a balance between security and liberty. I believe that we are making it correctly in these procedures, and that we are seeking appropriately and correctly to find the balance.
Mr. Blunt: On a point of order, Sir Michael. I apologise to the Home Secretary for interrupting him, but this is an important matter of procedure. Will it be possible to reply to the substantial case that the Home Secretary has made against the abolition of the distinction between non-derogating and derogating control orders, which was actually selected for consideration in the second group under clause 2? Will it be in order to make speeches, following the Home Secretary's points, under the group that we are currently discussing?
The Second Deputy Chairman: We are discussing amendment No. 4 and the other amendments listed on the paper before the Committee—
Mr. Fisher: On a point of order—
The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Let me deal with one point of order at a time.
It is up to hon. Members themselves how they respond to the debate. Obviously, the Chair will make sure that proceedings are in order.
Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con):
On a point of order, Sir Michael. The Home Secretary has been generous in giving way and he has spoken at length, but almost exclusively to his letter, which has no legal standing at all. He has not spoken at all to this group of amendments and new clauses. Is it your understanding, Sir Michael, that he will seek to catch your eye later in the debate? Almost uniquely in such a situation, the Home Secretary has not addressed at all the items before the Committee for consideration.
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The Second Deputy Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman is not raising a point of order so much as a matter for debate. The Committee is obviously ranging widely at the moment, and that is part of its wide range.
Simon Hughes: Further to that point of order, Sir Michael. I hope that the Home Secretary can help us. May we ask him through you if he will indicate which of the amendments in the group are covered by his proposals? Those could easily be voted through and we should be halfway done.
The Second Deputy Chairman: The Home Secretary indicated that he had concluded his remarks for the time being—
The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. I think that other hon. and right hon. Members should have the opportunity to express their views and we will take matters in the usual way.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: Further to that point of order, Sir Michael. I think that we are dealing with a matter of order and not just of the content of the debate. For about an hour and a half, the Home Secretary has carried out something of a tour de force, discussing and debating with every member of the Committee the concessions that he is trying to make, but he has illustrated the dangers of not following the normal procedures by just making a speech at large about what the Bill will be like when it has been amended and the type of issue that will then be thrown up. Having listened for an hour and a half, I am partially persuaded on some points, although not on others. Like other Members, I can think of a whole raft of amendments that I should now like to table to clarify some of those points—although I would be helped if I could first see what the Government were proposing.
This is a chaotic way of proceeding. For most of the last two hours nothing has been said that bears any relation to the selection of amendments before us. With respect, Sir Michael, I repeat the request that we have a brief adjournment or suspension of the sitting to consider how best to proceed. Perhaps the Leader of the House might be tempted from 50 yd away, where he is no doubt watching these proceedings on screen, to come to the Chamber and suggest how we might proceed. If we now revert to the first selection of amendments, Sir Michael, and you call Members to make speeches and remotely try to keep to the rules of order, you will have to rule most of the speakers out of order as soon as they start dilating on half the things that the Home Secretary has just told us. That underlines why we have normal procedures—
The Second Deputy Chairman:
Order. A number of Members have asked for a suspension this afternoon, but we have proceeded in the circumstances in which we found ourselves. I am not in a position now to suspend the Committee, but I am in a position to make sure that we debate the amendments before us and their effects and ramifications, which are wide. If matters had been out of order, my predecessor in the Chair would have ruled them so. We are now simply wasting time—
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The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. It is important that we have some order. We have had interventions on interventions on interventions this afternoon, and it is very difficult to get order in those circumstances. It is time we moved on. The Chair will do his best to make sure that things are in order. I call Mr. Dominic Grieve.
Mr. Grieve: I hope that it will be in order, Sir Michael, if I treat amendment No. 4, tabled by the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths), as a request to the Committee to include not only judicial oversight, but judicial participation in the making of control orders as proposed by the Government. I am obviously also aware that many other amendments follow on from that tabled by the hon. Gentleman— including some tabled by myself and my hon. Friends, and indeed, in some cases, signed up to by Members on both sides of the House—that provide different ways and mechanisms for doing that. Perhaps I can just say in passing, to avoid having to return to it, that new clause 6, which comes at the tail end of the group—I am very grateful to Justice for proposing it in such short order—provides a mechanism that would allow a possible way forward by providing such a system. I shall say no more about that at this stage.
6.30 pm
Mr. Garnier: Before my hon. Friend moves on and says no more about that matter, may I ask him about new clause 6? As he correctly says, it comes at the end of the great list of amendments about which we have not been speaking for the past hour and a half, and as it is a new clause, any vote taken on it will presumably come towards the end of our proceedings. Will he ask us to divide the Committee on new clause 6? It is clearly not only a matter that needs to be spoken about, but a public expression of opinion received.
Mr. Grieve: I have some slight doubt about whether we will reach new clause 6 to put it to the vote, but it certainly struck me that it is the closest that we have come to finding a sensible mechanism if we are to pursue a line of discussion about setting up a sensible framework for judges to make decisions about whether control orders should be imposed.
Mr. Cash: I do not in any way wish to enter a discordant note, but I suggest that my hon. Friend look at new clause 6(8), which says:
"that the obligation is consistent with the defendant's Convention rights within the meaning of the Human Rights Act 1998".
He will appreciate the fact that I have affirmed over and over again—this did not come out just now—that the problem is that the Government are in a jam precisely because the human rights legislation has created a lot of artificial distinctions that they are now trying to deal with. Does he accept that it would not be desirable for us to adopt provisions that have to be consistent with the Human Rights Act, and that new clause 5, which I tabled, would provide a way to deal with that?
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