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Mr. Clapham: I worked for the National Coal Board when there were more than 250 collieries. The board had overall responsibility, but colliery managers had responsibilities similar to those in the Bill. Periodically, they reported to the board about the situation at their particular collieries, and as a result of the Mines and Quarries Act 1954, which laid down that practice, we had the safest deep mine industry in the world.

Malcolm Bruce: The hon. Gentleman has long experience in the coal industry, and we can look at examples of best practice. I suppose that the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst would want to know whether the chairman of the coal board had the same responsibility. I do not see why not, and that is why I support the Bill.

If general responsibility for health and safety could lead to criminal liability, directors need guidance about what that means. The Bill therefore requires directors to
 
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inform themselves about health and safety practices and to take all reasonable steps to satisfy themselves that they know what they are. If there are any problems, they should support remedial action. In those circumstances, they should be able to satisfy the Crown Prosecution Service and others that they have followed all the relevant procedures and taken reasonable action, so a criminal prosecution is not justified.

I accept the argument of the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Hepburn) that the health and safety information director should be charged with informing other board members about health and safety issues. I disagree with the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd), however, because if a particular director was the nominated health and safety director they could become a scapegoat for the board. In addition, it might be difficult to get people to accept that responsibility. There is a danger of undermining the main purpose of the Bill, which is to make all the directors responsible for health and safety, collectively and individually.

Tony Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman and I have the same philosophical view of the Bill. I agree that the board should be collectively responsible for health and safety, but the problem in areas such as financial irregularity in companies is that unless there is a designated finance director, no one has responsibility to drive through prudent financial policies. The health and safety case is the same, and there needs to be a controller who drives through a health and safety policy. That is not a blame culture, because those who do the job well will have a proper defence in law, as the hon. Gentleman described, by demonstrating prudent operation. Those who fail, as in cases such as the Herald of Free Enterprise and other tragedies, will end up in the dock.

Malcolm Bruce: That is one of the issues that we must explore to understand the thrust of the Bill. The hon. Gentleman extended his description of the function of the information director beyond what is stated in the Bill. The information director's job will be to direct and convey information to the board, not to disseminate it throughout the company. I would be concerned if there was a huge responsibility to disseminate the information, not least because it would be expensive and bureaucratic. The Bill introduces a specific responsibility, and as long as the hon. Member for Jarrow takes on board the hon. Gentleman's intervention, I am less concerned than I was, although I still think the issue should be explored further in Committee.

Mr. Boswell: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there could also be a serious conflict of interest between the directors in relation to the health and safety information director, because the obvious defence after something has gone wrong is to say, "If only he had given me the information, I would have exercised my directorial duties and acted on it."? There could then be a further conflict of interest.

Malcolm Bruce: The counter argument is likely to be that the information director would be anxious to ensure that he shared problems with the rest of the
 
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board, to offload his responsibility. It would be a two-way process. I am not saying that this is the wrong approach or that it will not work, but we should explore it a little further. I support the Bill, and those are issues that could usefully and constructively be explored in Committee. I share the reservations of the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst about the long title of the Bill and the public sector. It is interesting that Labour Members agree that it should be parallel, but that would probably require further legislation.

No doubt the Minister will explain the Government's position, but the briefing suggests that they are less than wholehearted in their support, which seems to be a slight change in their position, as Labour Members have said. I am not trying to make mischief, but I want to press the Government to be consistent and logical, because they have rowed back from their initial position. They promised a Bill covering corporate manslaughter, but we are not sure whether their proposal amounts to that or whether it is just an extension of the existing regime. People are looking for criminal penalties in extreme circumstances, which one hopes will be rare, but may arise. If the Government are serious that corporate manslaughter should be an offence on the statute book, it is difficult to see how they can avoid adopting something like the Bill as part of the framework in which liability for corporate manslaughter can be established. A duty of care must be clear and explicit before a director can be accused of having breached that duty to a criminal extent.

There is a lack of clear, coherent momentum in the Government's approach. Not only have they backed off, they are not fitting everything together. The Minister should take a more constructive approach and work with the hon. Member for Jarrow to take the Bill through. If, for reasons we understand, it does not get on to the statute book, the Government should take on board the points raised in this debate, and in the discussion that would take place in Committee, and incorporate them into their legislation on corporate manslaughter. That would be the right way forward. I assure the Minister that my party would be willing to work constructively with the Government on that. They know that we believe that there should be an offence of corporate manslaughter. We all want prosecutions and convictions to be rare, but we want to create a climate in which people accept their responsibility. We also want to be sure that in circumstances such as those that I described in my constituency, directors are left in no doubt that they could face a prison sentence for criminal negligence if it led to the death of one of their employees. That is right and proper for victims and their families and would be accepted by the wider public.

Mr. Clapham: I am listening intently to the hon. Gentleman's argument. The Government may wish to consider another argument. As we move to risk management for fire and rescue, all premises will have to carry out risk management exercises. Fire and rescue services are often called to premises when an accident has happened, so that will have to be taken into account. The Government may see a connection between what will be required by the fire and rescue services and how the Bill might fit into that.

Malcolm Bruce: I am grateful for that intervention.
 
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I am bringing my comments to a close, but I want to reinforce my case. The Government have a responsibility to respond to their own Members and to our concern that they are not receiving the Government's full support. However, I shall not speak for Labour Members, because they can speak for themselves.

The Government have given positive support to the principle of corporate manslaughter and criminal liability of individual directors in extreme cases. My party has backed that constructively and consistently. It would serve the Government well to take a constructive view of the proposals in the Bill. If they cannot support those proposals in their present form, they could give a commitment to incorporate the ideas, as well as the role of the public sector, into one Government Bill. The hon. Member for Jarrow is making a constructive attempt to take the matter forward. It fits in with the corporate manslaughter Bill and the Government should respond in that spirit.

I hope that my speech, with its reservations, demonstrates a constructive engagement and a desire to make effective and workable legislation that is not excessively bureaucratic. We are keen to put responsibility where it lies and leave people to make their own judgment within a framework and guidance that everyone can understand. If we can do that, we will help to reduce the number of accidents at work, which everyone wants and which would benefit business.

On the point made by the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst, I am not sure that leaving the matter to a voluntary sense of good business is sufficient, because although many businesses have a culture that delivers that, others—I have identified one—do not, and they must be confronted with the law to make them understand the risks that they take if they are negligent.

10.39 am

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