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Mr. David Crausby (Bolton, North-East) (Lab): When the Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974 became law, I was a young shop steward working
 
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in the engineering industry. It was a good piece of legislation, and my recollection is that many employers found themselves close to panic because the perception was that people responsible for unsafe working practices that led to injury and death could go to prison. Management reacted positively, in the main, in those early days of the Act by concentrating their minds on health and safety, and as a result, there were real and substantial improvements to health and safety standards, with untold workers' lives and limbs saved.

Before the 1974 Act, the industrial scene could often be described as a nightmare, with the most horrific and dangerous practices commonplace. There were no general duties, and if something was not specified in the Factory Acts, workers and employers did pretty well what they chose to do. The fear of personal prosecution made a fantastic difference, but 30 years have now passed, and the reality has been somewhat different, with the prisons not exactly full of managers and supervisors.

The truth is that tiny numbers of people have been prosecuted and convicted, and some of the fines imposed have been pathetic. The higher up the promotional ladder people go, the safer they get from prosecution, when the very opposite should be the case. The result is that the industrial establishment has become relaxed, those in it have felt increasingly secure from prosecution, so there is now a clear and urgent need to apply their minds again. Company directors and employers are, of course, not eager to hurt their employees, but the pressures of work and profitability often take precedence. They must never be allowed to do so.

Many years ago, I worked as a works convener in an engineering company that machined a material containing asbestos. There was no indication in the material's name that the substance was in any way dangerous. The men who processed it did so in ignorance, with no protection. There were no masks or extraction. They were sometimes covered from head to toe in the powder, which they washed off at the end of the day. They then took their clothes home and allowed their wives to wash them. They even blew the powder off their machines with compressed air and scattered it around the machine shop for everyone else to share.

When it came to my attention that the material could be dangerous, I quite properly contacted the factory inspector, who visited and insisted on extraction and respiratory equipment. The works manager was not at all pleased, to say the least. He considered it an inconvenience, but was forced reluctantly to comply. A short time later, he was moved to another factory some miles away in another town. The process of machining the asbestos material went with him.

I lost contact with the process, but some years later I learned to my surprise that the other factory was manufacturing the product without safety measures. The factory inspector came in again and imposed the same safety procedures. There was no prosecution. The manager did not even get his knuckles rapped. He fully understood the dangers, yet he kept his mouth shut and chose to put his productivity levels before his employees' safety, because for him, masks and extraction were too much trouble.
 
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This was a man who went to church every Sunday, and in the eyes of the village community, he was a decent, God-fearing man. In my eyes he was a villain who should have gone to prison because what he did knowingly was as bad as, if not worse than, someone driving a car while blind drunk. He simply had no time for health and safety. He knew that nothing in the law could touch him. He was fully aware that the hidden killer—asbestos—was entering his workers' lungs and that it would take years to show itself. The man has since retired and died, but the men he harmed may have yet to die before their time as a result of what is, in my view, his criminal neglect. The truth is that no one will ever be brought to justice for their deaths.

I am sorry to say that that man's behaviour has been replicated over the years across our industrial scene. Too many men and women to mention have suffered and died without complaint. Middle management is often under so much pressure to produce that they are forced to turn a blind eye to health and safety, and I am afraid that some company directors allow them to get on with it. So when the Bill introduces duties on directors to act in the interests of health and safety, I say, "And about time, too." No one else should be allowed to suffer without redress. If the responsibilities contained in this proposed legislation had been in effect when we were machining that asbestos, I am confident that it would have been a different story, because the safety standards would have been transferred with the work.

To be fair, my experience of company directors and senior management is that they have no desire whatsoever to put their employees at risk, but the problems often lie lower down the managerial chain. Legislation that puts a clear duty on individual directors by insisting on good standards and good systems is bound to apply their minds to health and safety issues, and as such it can only do good.

The manager in my story who put production before safety was wrong in both moral and financial terms. As has been emphasised, it is simply not good business in the long term to run an unhealthy and unsafe workplace. The loss of productivity alone through sickness and absence, in addition to the poor morale that inevitably runs throughout a work force who are treated like cannon fodder, more than compensates for the small short-term gains of the unsafe working practices that kill and maim so many people.

This is a good Bill; it is an excellent Bill which is long overdue. My hon. Friend can be proud of this piece of legislation and should be congratulated on his work. I urge the House to support him.

12.16 pm

Mr. Tony Clarke (Northampton, South) (Lab): I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Hepburn) on bringing this Bill before the House. It has been said that the ballot for private Members' Bills is very much a case of chance, but I always like to look at what Bills Members choose to promote, because it can be almost a window on the soul. In choosing their subjects, my hon. Friends the Members for Jarrow and for West Renfrewshire (Jim Sheridan) have shown not just their great empathy and sympathy for the working people of this country but that they want to right the wrongs which those who are left behind to pick up the pieces of the tragedies that have been mentioned so desperately want us to address.
 
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I declare an interest as a director of a limited company—Northampton Town football club. On a lighter note, I sometimes wish as a director that I could do more to prevent the injuries of some of our staff. They tend to be quite highly paid, but I sometimes wonder why when I see them sitting on the bench not contributing to what we are trying to produce. On a darker note, and also linked to the world of football, my fellow directors and I take very seriously the health and safety of our staff and those who enter our premises. We all well remember the tragedy of Hillsborough. If we could turn back the clock and prevent that loss of life, we would all do so.

I mention Hillsborough for two reasons. The first is that this morning we have spoken a great deal about the impact on the work force, but we must remember that directors and their companies have a responsibility to members of the public. In many of the cases where lives have been lost because of the act or omission of directors, innocent members of the public have been tragically killed.

Secondly, I mention Hillsborough because it has been asked whether the Bill should apply to the public sector as well as to the private sector. It would be only too easy to transfer the Bill's duties to the public sector. To take Hillsborough as an example, there were of course no convictions, but members of the police authority involved, for example, should be responsible people and take seriously their duties in respect of health and safety. The same could be said of local councils and their executive boards, and of primary care trust boards. We could therefore transfer the responsibilities of my hon. Friend's Bill to the public sector quite easily. I repeat the challenge issued to the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) and ask him to allow the Bill to go into Committee so that we may debate these issues sensibly.

Mr. Forth: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's generous offer, but I repeat what I said earlier, on which I have now taken some advice. Given its long title, it is most unlikely that it would be possible to extend the Bill to cover the public sector in anything approaching a meaningful way. What he proposes would not be possible in this case. We have to consider the Bill as it is, focused on the private sector and directors.

Mr. Clarke: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments, but I have to say that the fact that we might not be able to go as far as we want is no excuse for not putting the Bill on the statute book or for allowing 300-plus deaths a year to continue unchecked. Perhaps the Government will have to come back at a later date to extend coverage to the public sector; if so, so be it. We should not allow that to distract us from the need to take action in respect of the private sector.

Today, I wish to speak for the victims—for those who have been killed and for those who have been left behind. We all share the desire to get to the truth. When we lose someone close to us, we go through a period of grief and then one of anger. We all want to find out precisely what happened, why it happened, whether one individual is responsible and whether the tragic incident
 
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could have been prevented. In all too many cases, management action could have—should have—been taken to prevent the deaths. More than 70 per cent. of such tragedies could have been avoided and were the result of management inaction.

We have discussed language and communication and whether they have played a part in some of the tragedies. Although I accept that the overwhelming majority of directors are good, law-abiding citizens, I think that there is a problem in that sometimes some of the directors who are responsible for those acts or omissions speak only the language of profit and they allow profit to get in the way of their acting decently and providing proper health and safety protection for their employees. Last night, we heard Anne Jones speak passionately about the death of her son. Something she said that is worthy of repetition was that her son was working for an agency, which sent him to his death with no training, no information, no protective footwear or headwear, and no idea of what would be expected of him at that place of work. Through the Bill, we are saying that directors are responsible—not only directors of companies that employ workers directly, but the directors of work agencies. Such agencies operating in this country must take seriously the role that they can play in health and safety by ensuring that they do not send people into dangerous situations.

Do workers need more protection? Yes. If they did not, such a large number of deaths—one a day, hundreds a year—would not be occurring. Do directors need direction? Yes. If not, the Health and Safety Executive would not be reporting the outrageous fact that over a three-year period fewer than 50 per cent. of boards discussed health and safety. Do we need legislation? Yes. The voluntary code has failed; it has not delivered the reduction in the number of accidents and deaths that it was intended to achieve. I urge my right hon. Friend the Minister to give us some good news about the Government's intentions and I ask Opposition Members to think again about allowing the Bill to go to Committee unchallenged, so that we can continue the debate and ensure that we get proper legislation on the statute book as quickly as possible. Speed is of the essence. Every day that we do not act, another person loses their life. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow for presenting the Bill to the House and wish him success.

12.24 pm

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