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Chris Bryant: As my hon. Friend said, his area—like mine—has received considerable support from structural funds and from the EU. Perhaps he will also point out that by allowing greater economic prosperity in some eastern countries in the new enlarged EU, we are helping them to compete in the bargain basement and thereby to deprive areas such as his and mine of jobs.

Mr. Henderson: That is absolutely true, but when considering the economic consequences of Latvia, Poland or the Czech Republic joining the EU, we should bear in mind the opportunity that it gives the British economy to trade with them at a higher level in future. Some may say that that is pie in the sky, but that does not apply to trade flows between Britain and Portugal and between Britain and Spain. There has been a vast increase in activity in both directions, but to our advantage in many respects. If I were speaking from the Dispatch Box, I would check the figures before making that assertion, but I think it is broadly correct.

There are many other spheres in which we must act together, which I think are important to democracy and civilisation in Europe and which involve minimum cost. Costs are involved in asylum and border policy—another important issue—but if we are to have public support in the west of the European Union, the people in the west must be satisfied that the same standards of asylum and border control obtain in the east. If some of the eastern countries cannot fund those standards at present, there must be a degree of payment transfer in the short and, possibly, the medium term. Many important things that the EU does, however, do involve minimum cost.

Members are bound to mention aid, and they can make that as big an issue as they want. Of course aid involves cost, which must be kept in reasonable proportion—although I support a common European policy on some aspects of aid. I am involved in the sugar regime because of constituency interests in the chocolate industry. I think that it would be wrong to restructure that regime without considering the consequences for
 
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the various poorer countries that are affected. If the European Union decides to restructure the regime—which I think it should—it must take account of those consequences. The process will not work if everybody in the EU is bound by the new sugar regime but not by the aid regime. So it is important to take common action within the EU on this issue and I strongly support doing so, although I recognise that there have to be limits. It is a question of bargaining with the other countries and of looking at what is acceptable to public opinion across Europe.

Mr. Davidson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way on this important point. He has spoken very sensibly on the question of solidarity within Europe and across the world as a whole, but surely the test of financing via the European Union is whether or not it adds value. The objection that many of us have to giving ever-increasing sums to the EU is not that we do not want co-operation, but that such money is sucked into a morass of fraud, corruption and inefficiency. As a result, we obtain less bang for the buck than would otherwise be the case.

Mr. Henderson: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, with which I partly agree. The EU needs to decide the borders of the territory within which a common aid policy is to be implemented. Such borders will be movable, depending on world events. For example, there is a need sometimes to be involved in, say, Bosnia, and it is perhaps worth considering funding such undertakings from a security budget, rather than from the aid budget.

I want such money to be audited effectively and spent well. I know from past examination of such matters that it has not always been spent well, which is why, often, the auditors will not sign it off. But that issue is separate from the question of whether we should spend such money; rather, it concerns ensuring that if we do spend it, it is spent properly, and that there is proper accountability. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Davidson) agrees that we need to draw that distinction.

Mrs. Dunwoody: But let us consider the example of a local authority supported by large sums of money, raised through taxation measures implemented by this House. If, over a period of 10 years, there was clear evidence that the people taking in that money were not conforming to proper auditing rules, were unable to account for much of it and were frequently making it clear that they had been involved in fraud and corruption, would my hon. Friend accept that?

Mr. Henderson: Perhaps my hon. Friend could clarify her question. Would I accept what?

Mrs. Dunwoody: Would my hon. Friend accept such behaviour? Would he accept such an arrangement in respect of any other organisation with which this House has dealings—or in respect of any other form of taxation, be it local or national—if there was clear evidence of fraud and corruption, and if the auditors refused for 10 years to sign off the accounts?

Mr. Henderson: Of course I would not, and as I tried to say in response to my hon. Friend the Member for
 
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Glasgow, Pollok, this issue must be tackled. There is a need to improve the EU's auditing process and its financial planning, but that is an argument not for getting rid of the EU or for curtailing its activities, but for ensuring that, once we have defined what its responsibilities and priorities should be, the budgets are fairly tightly geared towards them. That can be done, but such things are more difficult to do at international than national level.

On the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), if a local authority were questioned about auditing, there would be discussion and argument among the various political parties and institutions in the city in question as to whether taking serious action against the authority was worth the candle. Hopefully, the answer would be yes, but a lot of negotiation has to take place before such action can be taken. However, I hope that my hon. Friend understands that in the EU, one has to multiply that process by the large number of member countries within it, which makes such discussion and the decision-making process more difficult. I do not say that to defend inefficient procedures or unaudited accounts, which I believe should be dealt with.

Before finishing, I want to mention a few important aspects of what the EU does that do not cost much money. Technology exchange and university links are significant developments within the EU that can help to bolster our industries. The aircraft carrier provides an interesting example. It is now unthinkable that such a complex and costly project could be developed within one country alone. The aerospace industry needs to look at the broader sphere. Technology transfer can be beneficial not only to the relatively well-informed technological nations of the EU, but to the less well-informed ones. The costs are minimal, but the EU has a fundamental role to play. Those are the arguments that we have to put before the public.

Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab) rose—

Mr. Henderson: I may give way in a few moments.

The EU has also had an important role to play in respect of human rights. We cannot talk about human rights throughout the world unless there is a system based on human rights within the EU. Again, systems based on human rights do not cost a lot of money, just relatively low administrative costs.

Environmental issues can be costly if major improvements are being sought in either the private or the public sector, and that applies whether or not those improvements are being implemented at the country level or the EU level. I believe that we have to strike an appropriate balance over funding, but the rules governing power station emissions and all the rest of it must be determined at European level. The only organisation in Europe that is capable of achieving that is the European Union. Many other examples of projects that do not cost much money could be cited.

If the question is how much money should be spent, the answer is that, in a sense, we can never spend enough. All the issues that I have articulated in my speech—they have also been articulated by Front Benchers and others in the debate—potentially cost
 
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money, and the amount of money needs to be controlled. There needs to be an ongoing public debate to justify the importance of what the EU does and to gain public support for the funding. We should justify the EU in the same way as we continually justify the importance of the national health service. Very few people argue against the need to finance the NHS, though there may be arguments about the effectiveness of the spending, and we have to make exactly the same arguments in favour of the EU. We need to bring EU budgets to a level that is acceptable to public opinion.

I ask the Minister to tell us a little more about the timetable for taking the process forward—the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Mr. Spring) asked the same question—and to explain in greater detail what Britain intends to do during its six-month presidency.

5.23 pm

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