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Mr. Don Foster (Bath) (LD): I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Mr. Wyatt), who made an interesting and provocative speech. I disagree with him on a number of points. For example, I believe that his contention that the charter should not last for 10 years is misplaced. For the very reasons that he gave of the huge changes taking place in the broadcasting ecology, it is crucial that the BBC be given a 10-year period to see it through those changes—not least, the move to digital switchover—with a degree of certainty.

I am also concerned about the language that the hon. Gentleman used in regard to top-slicing. He seemed to support the concept of taking money away from the
 
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licence fee revenue and using it for other purposes. To be fair, the proposals that he went on to make seemed largely to involve the BBC using that money itself for rather different purposes. I was a little confused by that.

In some areas, however, I am in total agreement with the hon. Gentleman, not least on his last point about BBC World. He is absolutely right to say that the BBC World Service is a jewel in the BBC's crown that many other countries have tried to emulate without success. BBC World, however, is not in the same category, and we desperately need to do something significantly to improve it.

I also agree with the hon. Gentleman's comments about the role of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) in his chairmanship of the Select Committee. We welcome much of the work that he has done, especially on the report that we are debating today. I congratulate him, the other members of the Committee and the officers of the Committee on the work that they have put in. The Liberal Democrats fully support the vast majority of the recommendations in the Committee's report.

Given the Committee's recommendation for the continuation of the licence fee without top-slicing, however, I should like to remind the right hon. Gentleman that it was only about three months ago that he and I were debating this issue in the old Greater London council building across the road. I was arguing in favour of the licence fee, and he, while dodging rain coming in through the roof of the building, was on the other side of the argument. I am delighted that he appears to have changed his mind on that issue. The report is excellent, and I support many of its recommendations. The one recommendation with which I disagree relates to the length of the charter—the report recommends five years, whereas we would support the proposal in the Green Paper that it should be for 10 years.

Although the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton is critical of some aspects of the BBC, and rightly so in some cases, overall, he is an ardent supporter of the BBC. That is my position, too. We should all recognise the huge benefits of the BBC to this country, both in terms of our citizens and of what it projects about this country abroad. We should praise it for its diversity, educational programming and high-quality drama and comedy; for its work on sports, to which I shall return in a few minutes; for its children's programming free of advertisements; for having one of the world's most trusted websites; for providing a wonderful diversity and range of music offerings, not least on the radio; and, perhaps above all, for its news and current affairs programmes, which are authoritative, accurate and, notwithstanding what others have said, largely impartial. As I have mentioned, there is also the gem of the World Service.

Even those who never watch BBC television get enormous benefits from the BBC. Many of them listen to some excellent programmes on BBC radio, whether national programmes or excellent local radio station programmes. Let us not forget that 24 per cent. of the licence fee is spent on radio, which is reflected in some of the excellent material produced.
 
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Even if people do not listen to the radio or watch the television, they still benefit from the BBC's tremendous work in technological development. All hon. Members will recall that the BBC made the first moves to get computers into our schools. We should also remember its development work in relation to the world wide web, and its current work, with more still to be done, on promoting the move towards digital.

Above all, there is the fact that a large percentage of people who work in other broadcasting organisations have been trained by the BBC. It is, in effect, the university of broadcasting. During the many rounds of interviews that many of us did on the day of the Green Paper's launch, I followed Michael Grade into ITV, where he was about to do an interview immediately before me. The person from ITV who met and greeted him was quick to point out that although he now worked for ITV, he was proud that he had done all his training with the BBC.

Therefore, even if people do not watch or listen to BBC programming, they benefit from it. For 82 years, the BBC has set standards throughout the world for public service broadcasting. It is the pre-eminent public service broadcaster. Two days ago, a South African newspaper, Business Day, said that

"most of the world, South Africa included, has regarded the BBC as a model of public service broadcasting."

That is not to say that the BBC always gets it right. I entirely agree with the comments of the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) about the Brendan Fearon case. The BBC's decision to pay money to that person was disgraceful. It is worth reflecting that there have been two trials involving the Tony Martin case, and all the information about Brendan Fearon's involvement came out in those trials. There was no need to pay him money to get him to repeat what we already knew. It was not in the public interest to do so, and neither would it have helped one iota in our deliberations about individuals' right to protect their homes.

Sir Gerald Kaufman: Is not it a fact that had a newspaper done what the BBC did in that case, it would be a violation of the Press Complaints Commission code, and the PCC would have imposed sanctions on the newspaper concerned? Given that the new leadership of the BBC is determined to turn over a new leaf, would not it be a good idea if it stopped defending its action, apologised and said that it will never happen again?

Mr. Foster: I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the BBC should apologise. I am sure that he knows, however, that the PCC recognises in its procedures the right for there to be payments to people in certain circumstances, including when it is in the public interest. I simply do not believe that that interview was in the public interest, and I am sure that he agrees. It would have fallen foul of my interpretation of the PCC rules, which are somewhat mirrored by the BBC's own rules.

Despite the fact that the BBC gets it wrong from time to time, anything that we were to do to damage it seriously would be at our peril. We need a strong, independent and well and securely funded BBC. It has not always been obvious that everybody wants that—
 
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reference has rightly been made to the disgraceful episodes during the Hutton inquiry involving the behaviour not least of Mr. Alastair Campbell in his attacks on the BBC.

The other point that has been made strongly in this debate is that the BBC is at is best when there is competition in public service broadcasting. In relation to sport, reference has rightly been made to the enormous benefit seen within the BBC as a result of the excellent cricket coverage by Channel 4 and the excellent football coverage by Sky. It is therefore important that in any debate about the future of the BBC, we also keep an eye on the importance of ensuring support for the other public service broadcasters: currently, ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5. For that reason, I welcome very much the work that Ofcom has been doing on this issue.

As many others have said, it is also important to recognise that the broadcasting ecology is changing dramatically. Television can already be accessed through broadband and moves are increasing to enable its reception through mobile phones. At some date in the future—I wish that we had a clear commitment from the Government as to that date—analogue switch-off will occur as we all move to digital. We have seen a huge increase in the number of channels available to us, with all the difficulties that that presents. Reference has already been made to the declining numbers of people watching ITV1, and that has an impact on the availability of advertising revenue for some of those channels.

A number of reports have come and gone. The Elstein report, commissioned by the Conservative party, seemed to have been rejected almost as soon as it was published. We have had the excellent report from the Select Committee. We have heard of the various interventions by Lord Birt in his attempt to lobby 10 Downing street and put pressure on the Secretary of State. I am delighted that that pressure was unsuccessful and that she was not persuaded of the argument for top-slicing the licence fee. I was surprised that Lord Birt made such a recommendation given that he had presented a totally opposing view on that issue only a few years earlier when he was heavily involved in his work with the BBC. These things happen, I suppose. As I have mentioned, there has been Ofcom's work on public service broadcasting.

Even without all those reports and the Green Paper, it is important to remember that the BBC does not stay the same. It has been changing without the need for any of that. As has been pointed out, one change is the ending of involvement in the ratings war. I agree with the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford that we do not want the BBC to become a ghetto for what the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) described as unpopular programming. It is important for the BBC to produce programmes that are popular. What the hon. Gentleman rightly criticised were moves towards what we call dumbing down, and a surfeit of reality and makeover television shows. There are already far too many of those on our screens.

There have been moves to change the number of staff, not because of the charter review or any other reports. I only hope that the BBC will work hard to ensure that the members of staff affected have a chance to become involved in the new opportunities that the BBC's
 
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decision will allegedly create. Similarly, changes have been made to BBC Worldwide that have nothing to do with the review or other reports.

I accept that many changes are being made, but I do not entirely accept criticism of the BBC's involvement in the publication of magazines, especially music-related and educational magazines and others that are directly connected with programmes. I think it is crucial for the BBC to go on being involved with magazines of that kind.

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