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Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman also congratulate the BBC on the fact that it is moving its children's department to Manchester, and on recognising that everything good does not have to emanate from London? There are regions outside London, and I am sure that the children's department will flourish in Manchester.

Mr. Grogan: The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. Indeed, if my memory serves me right, BBC Sport and BBC 5 Live will also move to Manchester. The governors will have an interim role to play, in that they will have to sign off the move to Manchester. They said that it was dependent on the outcome of the licence fee settlement, so I suppose that we will have to wait some months yet. The sooner the move happens, the better, and not just for the north-west, as there will also be a ripple effect across the whole of the north of England.

One of the good things about the BBC's moving north is that it might stimulate the independent production market in the north-west and in the north as a whole. Currently, all the top 10 independent production companies are in London. However, we need to introduce some balance into that debate. It is true that independent producers have great virtues in terms of creativity and speed of reaction, but there is also a virtue in the BBC's continuing to be not just a broadcaster of programmes, but a major producer. Over the years, it has had a great training role in the industry and its production departments have been very creative.

I hope that the governors will scrutinise carefully in the next few months the different proposals emanating from BBC management. The hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford mentioned various privatisation proposals, and BBC Resources in London—the technicians—is up for privatisation, as is BBC Worldwide, which is the BBC's play-out function. So in London, at least, the BBC will be left with lots of in-house lawyers but very few in-house technicians. I am not sure that that constitutes the correct balance, particularly given that in the rest of the country, BBC Resources is being kept in-house.

John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend think that the drive toward maintaining
 
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quality of production can be maintained in the light of the proposed overall budget cut of 15 per cent. and the laying off of 3,500 staff?

Mr. Grogan: That is a good question, and the governors have a big role to play in the next few months in ensuring that quality is maintained in areas where cuts and savings are made. For example, a saving of 10 per cent. in respect of some local radio stations could make a big difference to quality.

Mention has already been made of parliamentary coverage, and I am pleased to hear that "Yesterday in Parliament" is safe, but I hope that coverage of political conferences is also safe. Such coverage, which the BBC has previously contemplated cutting back on, is an important function of the BBC. It is important that it maintains a quality presence in those areas, and the governors have a key role to play in insisting on that.

I welcome the many white tinges to the Green Paper. On the licence fee and governance in particular, the BBC needs to start planning almost immediately for the future. I do not believe everything that I read in the papers, but the Secretary of State does appear to have had a considerable political victory, about which I am pleased. Those two chaps Burns and Birt are indeed noble Lords, but they seem to spend far too much time hanging around No. 10, which is good neither for them nor the nation—golf is a good and much-recommended alternative. Their agenda involves slicing up the licence fee and introducing a public service broadcasting commission, but I have doubts about both. If one top-slices the licence fee and gives it to commercial broadcasters, it will be difficult to convince oneself that the programmes that such broadcasters then make would not have been made anyway. That is a fundamental difficulty with that suggestion.

I disagree with the detail of Lords Burns and Birt's proposed public service broadcasting commission in a number of ways. They are suggesting that the chair of the BBC executive board be appointed by the Government. That would be a retrograde step for the BBC's independence. When it comes to the stewardship of the BBC, I believe that the new trust model has much to be commended in exclusively representing licence fee payers. The public service broadcasting commission would have the power, as I understand it, to top-slice the licence fee, which would be for ever hanging over the BBC, leading to confusion and continual lobbying.

I am glad that the Secretary of State decided that Ofcom should not assume a greater role. It is establishing itself as a regulator, among other things, of commercial broadcasting, and the skills involved in that are very different from those required to regulate public service broadcasting.

I had the pleasure of attending a BBC function last night. I have at least two roles in this Parliament: one is chairing the all-party BBC group, the other acting as vice-chair of the all-party Mongolia group. The BBC has just produced a programme on Genghis Khan—classic public service broadcasting that will go out at prime time in April. We had a preview of the programme last night. The BBC is known throughout the world, and in Mongolia particularly, for the World Service and for the output of BBC journalists. I hope that the BBC will produce such quality programmes and put them out at
 
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prime time for many years to come. BBC 1 is still the most popular television channel in our nation. It is a channel that people dip in and out of and gain experiences that they would not otherwise have. I commend the Green Paper and hope that it will soon be a White Paper.

2.51 pm

Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan). We last participated in a debate together on Second Reading of the Communications Bill some two and a half years ago, when we clashed slightly. I have always enjoyed his speeches and we shall miss them after the next general election.

I come to this debate as a layman, and I want to express a layman's view. I have to confess—it is a confession, having sat through debates on the Broadcasting Act 1996 and the Communications Act 2003—that I want to convey the impressions of many people in this country, which are certainly borne out by my constituents.

I was brought up on the BBC after the war, when schoolmasters used to tell me about the opening bars of Beethoven's fifth symphony, which presaged the news and used to go out around the world. It was heard by the resistance in France. The BBC was a great national institution of which I and my parents were proud. I thus approach this debate on the BBC more in sorrow than in anger.

I was brought up on Reith and Reithian principles. I was brought up hearing the news read by Alvar Liddell—[Interruption.] A bit before my time, perhaps, but I think he was still alive then. I was also brought up on the World Service, which provided a fantastic image of Britain around the world. We always watched the BBC news because is was self-evident that it would be better than any other news provision.

There have been dramatic changes. I realise that the future of the BBC is a very complicated matter. I do not want to go into too much detail about the Green Paper, but to point out how the BBC has changed for the worse. If the BBC can be reformed, so be it, but it does not look much like it at the moment. We have heard about the dumbing down of the BBC, and spending licence payers' money on make-overs of people's houses and gardens is, frankly, pretty shocking—and many of my constituents agree. There is "Fame Academy", whatever that may be! It is certainly not what the BBC was set up to produce.

No longer does the BBC provide what everyone wishes to watch. I watch the World Service, or BBC Worldwide television as I believe it is now sometimes called, from time to time when I am abroad with the International Development Committee. I have to say that it is not producing the image of Britain that I would wish to see portrayed outside this country. I find it extraordinarily politically correct and not at all what I would like to see.

Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): I am trying to follow the thread of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. Does he
 
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agree with the recent outburst of his Front-Bench colleague that the BBC is full of dangerous left-wing radicals?

Mr. Robathan: I am not quite sure to which colleague the hon. Gentleman refers.

Andy Burnham: That one—the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale).

Mr. Robathan: As it happens, I recall it being said when I was at Oxford university that if anyone wanted to get a job in the BBC, it was necessary to be really left-wing, because Conservatives do not want to change things, which is not very interesting, whereas the left want to change things. A friend of mine, who is still with the BBC, bears that out. I am not sure whether it is populated with dangerous left-wing radicals, but I suspect that many there are left-wing.

I want to point out, by referring to the Gulf war of 2003, where the BBC has particularly let us down. I supported the Government's position on going to war and, funnily enough, unlike some Labour Members, I still do. Speaking as a former soldier, I understood a little of what was happening on the ground, but I found that BBC reporting seemed more designed to back up the anti-war sentiments and prejudices of some reporters. After hearing that the British Army was "bogged down" and had moved only 100 miles in a couple of days, I eventually switched off the BBC and started watching Sky. I reiterate the point that I am someone who was brought up to believe that the BBC was the best news channel. It was clear that the BBC reporting of the war was biased and, frankly, it still is. I say this not in defence of the Government, but I often notice that, in respect of what is happening in Iraq, the negative aspects covered by BBC journalists are much greater than the positive aspects.

The hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) asked me about political bias in the BBC. James Naughtie, in a dialogue with a Minister last week on the "Today" programme, spoke about "when we win" the election. I have to say that that is both extraordinary and telling. I do not know James Naughtie, but I do know which way his politics lean. The Government complain about the BBC—we know that it has been critical of the Government from Hutton and so forth—and it is interesting to note that the BBC tends to criticise the Government from the left, not the right.

Many MPs wake up to the "Today" programme. Having reflected on it yesterday, I was driven to participate in today's debate by listening to the "Today" programme this morning. Two things emerged from it. First, the BBC no longer reports the news on a programme such as "Today"; it prefers to make it. This morning, it featured an undercover investigation of an event in a prison in Scotland. I question whether it was right for the BBC to send an undercover reporter there. Is the BBC there to report and inform or to make the news? That seems a perfectly fair question. That problem crops up all the time. The story made the headlines in the news, but it was actually only a story about what the BBC had done.

What will the BBC do next? Will it entice people to break the law? That is not so far-fetched when we discover, as my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon
 
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and East Chelmsford pointed out, that the BBC paid £4,500 to a nasty little criminal who should probably still be in jail. Was that in the public interest? Certainly not, according to the person who wrote the guidelines for the BBC, as was mentioned earlier. What all that boils down to is the vanity and arrogance of the programme makers, who believe that they should set the agenda, they should make the news and they should report it.

The second point that goaded me into making this speech—and, by the way, getting it off my chest—was listening to John Humphrys interviewing Martin McGuiness. John Humphrys is well known as the scourge of politicians. We can all agree with that, and to be fair to him, he was fairly tough with Martin McGuiness this morning—as well he might be, as Martin McGuiness's organisation is almost certainly behind the biggest bank robbery that has ever taken place in this country and is heavily implicated in the murder of Robert McCartney.

John Humphrys had good reason to be fairly tough, and he was. Normally, he would not let a politician get a word in edgeways, but he gave Martin McGuinness well over 30 seconds to make an opening statement. Humphrys is normally tough with politicians and, to be fair, Martin McGuinness at least has some accountability in electoral terms. However, as they say in Belfast, even the dogs in the street know that he is a member of the Provisional IRA's army council, but Humphrys did not ask him about that. The questions that he wanted to ask were quite tough, but more reasoned.

When discussing the murder of Robert McCartney, did Humphrys ask Martin McGuinness about the murders that took place in Londonderry when he was head of the IRA there? That they happened is well documented. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) gave a description in the House last year of an interview that he had with Martin McGuinness in Londonderry in the early 1970s. He said that McGuinness admitted—or boasted, if one wants to put it that way—that he had ordered the deaths of more than 10 Catholics whom he considered to be informers.

I found the interview irritating because Humphrys did not do what he is there to do. He should have asked the difficult questions, but did not. That is what I mean when I say that the BBC's agenda is set by people like him. Their arrogance when challenged is worrying in the extreme. As I said, though, at least Martin McGuinness is elected, as are we. Like us, he can be held accountable, but broadcasters—pace Hutton—are not accountable, except to the BBC charter and Parliament. Therefore, this debate is our opportunity.

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