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Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I must inform the House that a message has been brought from the Lords as follows. The Lords insist on their amendments to the Prevention of Terrorism Bill to which the Commons have insisted on their disagreement. They insist on their disagreement to the amendments proposed by the Commons on which the Commons had insisted, and they disagree to the amendments proposed by the Commons in lieu for which insistences and disagreements they assign their reasons. Copies of the Lords reasons are available in the Vote Office, as are the Government's propositions relating to the message. All Government proposals are being debated together.
Mr. Charles Clarke:
I beg to move, That this House insists on its amendments 1A and 1B to Lords
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amendment No. 1, insists on its disagreement to Lords amendments Nos. 12, 13, 15, 17, 22, 28 and 37 and insists on its amendments Nos. 37A to 37C and 37E to 37O, does not insist on its amendment No. 37V, insists on its disagreement to Lords amendments Nos. 37Q to 37T proposed in lieu of Lords amendment No. 8 and insists on its amendments Nos. 17H to 17M to the words restored to the Bill by its insistence on its disagreement to Lords amendment No. 17 and proposes amendment (a) in lieu.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this we will discuss Lords reasons 8B, 12C, 13C, 15C, 17P, 22C, 27F, 28C, 31D, 32D and Government motion to insist &c. and Government amendment (a), and Lords reason 33H and Government motion to insist &c. and Government amendments (a) and (b) and Lords reason 37W.
Mr. Clarke: It is perhaps appropriate that we hope to complete the passage of the Bill today, on the first anniversary of the tragic Madrid bombing. That is a sad reminder of the reality with which all Members of this House and the other place must deal when considering these matters.
I am proposing three amendments to the Bill. The question of the making of non-derogating control orders, the burden of proof and the judicial supervision of non-derogating control orders relates to Lords reason 1F. My amendment provides that when the Secretary of State applies to the court for permission to make a non-derogating control order, he or she must supply the court with a copy of the order that he or she proposes to make.
We have been having a debate on the question of the Privy Council review versus an independent reviewer, which relates to Lords reasons 27F, 31D and 32D. My amendment provides that the independent annual reviewer must comment on the extent of the Secretary of State's use of the urgency procedure in relation to the making of non-derogating control orders in his report. That is an effort to meet the concerns expressed on my side of the House about the use of the urgency procedure and to ensure that that matter is properly in the public domain.
The third amendment that I propose deals with the question of annual renewal versus a sunset clause, which is covered by Lords reason 33H. My amendment would require the Secretary of State to consult the director general of the Security Service before making the annual renewal order.
Mr. Cash: Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The Home Secretary has indicated that he is not going to give way at the moment.
Mr. Clarke:
I am afraid that I am eerily familiar with the point that the hon. Gentleman wishes to make. Indeed, he made it to me in the Lobby only a few
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minutes ago. I think that I would like the debate to proceed on the issues before the House rather than his specific questions.
The story of the night both here and in the other House is that of a series of constructive moves made by this House. I shall list only the issues raised overnight—not the ones raised previously. We have proposed using the affirmative procedure in respect of the rules of court. We have proposed providing a wider role for the independent reviewer so that he or she can look at the whole Act. We have taken steps to ensure that the independent reviewer's report will be available so that the annual renewal debate on the Act can be proper and informed. We wish to include in the Bill the requirement for the Secretary of State to ask the independent reviewer to comment specifically on the implications for the Act of any future legislation on terrorism.
We have proposed putting a specific requirement on the Secretary of State to consult the independent reviewer before laying an order to renew the control order powers each year. We have proposed measures to include additional protection for the subjects of non-derogating control orders in the Bill and specifically to enshrine existing procedures to ensure that exculpatory material will be disclosed to the court and the special advocate in all cases, and also to the subject of the order, unless that is contrary to the public interest. We have moved amendments to allow the disclosure of unused material unless that is contrary to the public interest.
I have read that long list of the constructive moves made by the Government and the House to try to meet concerns expressed throughout the whole House and in the other place because it shows that we want to find constructive solutions. I contrast the approach of the Government and the Commons to the zero movement—that is literally the case—of the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats who control the other place. In 12 hours, there have been two rounds of consideration, but there has not been any movement at all. There have been two separate sessions in the Lords with zero response. Theirs is a stick-in-the mud response in which they have dug their heels into the sand and prevented the elected House from carrying out its proposals.
The country needs a Bill that prevents terrorism and protects our people. Our constituents, who elect us to the House, need that protection, and that is why we are addressing the issue in this way. I believe that it is time for the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats in the other place to respect the considered views of the elected Chamber. I urge the House to support the amendments and I urge Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members in the other place to give us their support.
Mr. Grieve:
I am sorry that the night has not brought the Home Secretary good counsel. I rather hoped that when we reassembled this morning a greater degree of clarity and common sense would prevail. Instead, we have had a repetition of the same old mantras. The Home Secretary said that he is making a major concession, but it appears that that means giving a copy of the order to the person concerned. He knows that the distinction that he continues to try to make between derogating and non-derogating orders is wrong and absurd. The logical conclusion of his argument is that derogating orders are valueless, as was explained by the Minister for Crime Reduction, Policing and
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Community Safety last night. There is no reason why non-derogating orders should not be subject to the same protection as derogating orders. Having had his moment of clarity, it is extraordinary that the Home Secretary is still unable and unwilling to give a logical explanation of why he will not concede that point, which we believe is of great importance.
The liberty of the individual must be protected, miscarriages of justice must be prevented, and if this anti-terrorism legislation is to work and command public approval in all communities in this country it must be seen to be transparently fair. It is extraordinary that the Home Secretary is prepared to tolerate a system in which there is inherent and manifest unfairness. The explanations that he has offered to justify it are frankly gobbledygook. We are told that there is a major concession on Privy Council review—there is not. The extent of the urgent procedure may be looked at by the independent reviewer, but there has been no attempt by the Home Secretary to engage with the value and merits of a full Privy Council review.
Finally, there is the issue of the sunset clause. The Home Secretary does not seem to have grasped the significance of the sunset clause to Parliament as a whole. This legislation is unusual and draconian, and it would be wrong to put something on the statute book that has the capacity to become permanent. There is no reason why the sunset clause should not be included in the Bill, and the mechanisms that the Home Secretary is giving himself to renew the legislation by order are fundamentally flawed and wrong. If the Home Secretary thinks that there will be movement in the other place on that point, he is profoundly mistaken, because it is of such importance.
Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey) (LD): Does the hon. Gentleman remember that when the Government last came to us, in 2001, with emergency powers to deal with terrorism, there was tension between the two Houses and a deadline to meet? However, a resolution was achieved because two principles were accepted by the Government—first, that there should be due process throughout, and secondly, that there should be a sunset clause. When the Government accepted those proposals, there was movement and both Houses came to an agreement.
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