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Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The Select Committee on Constitutional Affairs produced two reports on the Bill. The Government and the House of Lords together have implemented to a considerable extent the changes that we recommended. I welcome that. The Committee's track record is like that on most subjects: when we make recommendations, things tend to happen. That applies to the Bill. The rescue of the title and office of Lord Chancellor is a welcome change because it tries to deal with the genuine concern in many quarters that we might have ended up with a Minister who recognised no special obligation beyond that of running the Department well and delivering what the Prime Minister of the day wanted.

The concept of delivery often appears to be at variance with strong constitutional principles, which are normally maintained by convention, as the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) said. The retention of the office and the special Oath has partly allayed such concerns. However, of the two amendments that their Lordships have sent back to us, only one restricts the Prime Minister's ability to choose anyone he likes to be Lord Chancellor, and it also restricts that person to being a lawyer.

The amendment that requires the Lord Chancellor to be a Member of the House of Lords poses no restriction beyond that. Prime Ministers regularly decide that they would like someone to be a Minister who is not in the House of Commons and put that person in the House of Lords. Some rather good Ministers have emerged through that route, but it sits a little strangely with the way in which we do business at this end of the Building. Let us be clear: the amendment that restricts the Lord Chancellor to being a Member of the House of Lords does not restrict the kind of person who could fill that role. The only restriction that their Lordships propose in the other amendment is that the Lord Chancellor should be a senior lawyer.

Mr. Grieve: I accept that the Prime Minister can place whoever he likes in the Lords unless there is a reform of that ability. However, someone in the House of Lords
 
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acquires greater independence than he would enjoy in this House because he is freed from the considerable political pressures that he might experience here.

Mr. Beith: As it happens, I often observe the House of Lords from relatively close quarters—I declare my interest as the husband of a Member of it. I find a wide range of independence and party loyalty among its Members, who include some good people in all parties and none.

It appeared to the Committee and me that the primary concern was whether the person who exercises the office will have the standing and independence to defend the rule of law in Cabinet.

Mr. Garnier : Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Beith: No, I am answering the point made by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), whose concern I understand. However, I do not think that that concern is addressed by placing in the Bill a requirement that the person should be a Member of the House of Lords or a senior lawyer, even though I believe that the Government would be wise to look in both those directions for candidates, certainly in the near future, in seeking to get this position established, so that this matter can be settled in a reasonable way.

Mr. Garnier : Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that this Government are careless of the constitution not only in the way in which they create their legislation, but in the way in which they allow us time for debate? He has about 30 seconds left before this debate finishes. Is not that an utter disgrace and a suborning of the parliamentary process—

It being one hour after the commencement of proceedings on the programme motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker put the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].

Question agreed to.

Mr. Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put the remaining Questions required to be put at that hour.

Resolved,

That this House does not insist on its amendments Nos. 2, 264, 265 and 593, to which the Lords have disagreed.—[Mr. Leslie.]

Amendments proposed: (a) to (e).

Question put, That the amendments be made.

The House divided: Ayes 256, Noes 109.

Division No. 146 [8.1 pm


AYES

Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Barnes, Harry
Beard, Nigel
Beith, rh A. J.
Bennett, Andrew
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blears, Ms Hazel
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Browne, Desmond
Bruce, Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, Andy
Byers, rh Stephen
Byrne, Liam (B'ham Hodge H)
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Challen, Colin
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Cooper, Yvette
Corston, rh Jean
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Drown, Ms Julia
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gill, Parmjit Singh
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hanson, David
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Harvey, Nick
Havard, Dai (MerthyrTydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Heppell, John
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Johnson, rh Alan (Hull W)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Kennedy, rh Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
King, Andy (Rugby)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Lammy, David
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, rh Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCafferty, Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDougall, John
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, rh Michael
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, David
Mole, Chris
Moore, Michael
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Mountford, Kali
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Pearson, Ian
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Pugh, Dr. John
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Salmond, Alex
Sanders, Adrian
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, rh Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel
Steinberg, Gerry
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Wareing, Robert N.
Watts, David
Weir, Michael
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Winnick, David
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Iain (Hartlepool)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Nick Ainger and
James Purnell


NOES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Bacon, Richard
Baron, John (Billericay)
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)
Brady, Graham
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burnside, David
Butterfill, Sir John
Cash, William
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Conway, Derek
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Donaldson, Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Duncan, Peter (Galloway)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Evans, Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Flight, Howard
Forth, rh Eric
Francois, Mark
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hammond, Philip
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hogg, rh Douglas
Horam, John (Orpington)
Jack, rh Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maples, John
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Roe, Dame Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Soames, Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Trimble, rh David
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)

Tellers for the Noes:

Gregory Barker and
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown


Question accordingly agreed to.

 
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