Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
SARAH TYACKE
CB, MRS W JONES
AND SUSAN
HEALY
14 SEPTEMBER 2004
Q20 Mr Soley: Is there anything which
stands out in your mind as a particular problem or problems?
Mrs Tyacke: We have discussed
the issue that we might be swamped, and I think we did talk a
bit about that when you visited us. Obviously that is something
we have to be very aware of and have to deal with. If we leave
that part on one side obviously there would be, in terms of impact
upon our services, a readjustment of how we deal with newly released
material, ie it is open and we will need to make adjustments there,
I think, probably to make quite sure that it is made absolutely
clear to the public that that is the case. In terms of the rest
of our services, I cannot think that we will be having particular
issues but, of course, until it happens it is very difficult to
anticipate exactly what will happen. I would say in all my comments
in my experience the least expected tends to happen. Although
we have risk registers here, there and everywhere, we have to
be alert to the fact that things may not go at all in the way
that we think indeed we have made some preparation to try to think
what those might be.
Q21 Mr Soley: Finally, I know you do
not have a formal responsibility to report on how ready other
agencies are for the Freedom of Information Act but you are in
a position to make some sort of assessment of local authorities
over other agencies. I was just wondering if you could give the
Committee some idea of your assessment of where other organisations
are up to in terms of being ready for the Freedom of Information
Act?
Mrs Tyacke: Yes. We are coming
at it from a very long-term perspective; records management and
archives go on forever, well I like to think so. In the particular
issue that you are enquiring into and our impression—and
it is only an impression—is that in the wider public sector
things are coming along, but are patchy. I noticed only last night
in the Evening Standard that people are evidently on the
move because there is an advertisement in a London local authority
for an Information and Records Manager. I think an earlier survey
indicated that some authorities did not have such a person and
it looks as if they are now moving to do that. Some authorities
were having problems getting a policy together and it looks as
if that is also now moving. This particular post is not only about
information and records management, but also is to take on data
protection and those other elements which are affected. I suppose
it would be true to say that we think the wider public sector
is patchy but coming along. In central Government, as I say, there
has been a long tradition of records management. Obviously, it
would depend very much on the particular question that is put
to central departments as to how they are able to manage to answer
the question. There are some questions that some departments will
probably have a greater impact upon them: I imagine Works and
Pensions is one, there are some other departments which may well
be around the policy area in records management terms, it would
very much depend on the quantity of records that need to be sorted
through as to whether, in the event, they are absolutely prepared
for FOI. There is guidance; there are systems, and it can be done.
Q22 Mr Soley: Is there any part of the
public sector which stands out in your mind as being likely to
be unready?
Mrs Tyacke: I think that is probably
something that needs to be put to DCA because it has its Ministerial
Advisory Committee[1]
and it includes the wider public sector, as well as ourselves.
I think it would be better to put that question there because
I think I have said where I have got to on records management
from our perspective.
Q23 Keith Vaz: The TNA has experience
in charging for certain types of access to records, for example,
on-line requests. Based on your expertise in dealing with the
public, how important a factor do you think the charging regime
for Freedom of Information requests will be?
Mrs Tyacke: In general you mean,
not in the TNA?
Q24 Keith Vaz: Yes.
Mrs Tyacke: In general, I would
have thought it will be quite important. Our own experience is
that because we operate some free on-line services, a paid for
value-added service and a free on-site service, the sort of choice
that people have is something which they appreciate. We rarely,
although we do, get complaints about some of our fees when they
are full cost recovery, but of course that is laid down as that
is what we are enjoined to do by Treasury.
Q25 Keith Vaz: What figure do you think
would be suitable to deter the time wasters, yet preserve the
principle of reasonable public access to public information because
the figure of £575 has been floated as a possibility? You
raise your eyebrows, so that must mean that it is too high?
Mrs Tyacke: That is a figure which
is not known to the TNA. We do not deal in such numbers, I am
afraid. That is obviously a figure which will be debated. Government
is taking a view of the fees.
Q26 Keith Vaz: Do you have an idea of
a good balanced figure that would enable you to do your work and
the public to get the information?
Mrs Tyacke: In our case, our fees
are set by the Instrument and they range from 30p a sheet for
copies through to whatever it happens to be, a scanned document
or whatever. I think what I am saying is that it will depend on
how the person wants the information; how much information and
one should take a pragmatic view about how you deal with that
because that is what a normal service providing body would do,
as we are.
Q27 Keith Vaz: Does the legislation apply
to all requests for information from TNA?
Mrs Tyacke: It requires us to
respond for the corporate record, which is our own record and
also for the records that we hold. In the case of the records
in the places of deposit and the historic record in departments,
we do have some role. My colleague Susan Healy will be pleased
to add to that.
Ms Healy: Yes, the Freedom of
Information Act applies to all the information we hold, unless
it happens to be environmental information in which case the environmental
information regulations apply, a parallel access regime, which
brings into UK law the European directive on access to environmental
information.
Q28 Keith Vaz: Will TNA only charge for
Freedom of Information requests concerning its own operations
or will it charge for any requests deemed to be a Freedom of Information
request, including those which concern the records held by the
TNA?
Mrs Tyacke: If they are the records
which we hold, then we will be operating a mixed economy system,
as I described. Some is free and then it goes through different
categories, depending on the choice of the way forward. I think
the answer is, that is what we will be charging for. We will not
be charging for information held elsewhere, that is for other
authorities to decide.
Q29 Chairman: Does that mean you could
have a situation where if I wanted a piece of information and
applied first to the department, they slapped on a standard charge,
but you had the material, I did not realise that. If I go straight
to you, you are much more benevolent and you would not charge
unless I started to incur costs.
Mrs Tyacke: Obviously, it would
be important for anybody who approaches whichever public authority
to be told where the material is.
Q30 Chairman: Would they be told that
without charge by the department?
Mrs Tyacke: I would imagine so,
but I cannot speak for them.
Q31 Chairman: They would not be charged
for the department trying to find out whether it had sent the
material to you or not?
Mrs Tyacke: I would hope not.
Q32 Ross Cranston: I was going to raise
an issue about the extent to which you do get spurious inquiries.
You showed us, for example, the military history room, the family
history room and those people seem to have a genuine interest
in their ancestors and so on. Is this a false premise that there
are a range of people out there who are going to try to gum up
the system? It seems to me this may be a false premise and any
charging regime should not be based on the notion that there are
certain people out there who are going to try and gum up the system.
Mrs Tyacke: Again, I would say
it would depend very much on what sort of record people are going
to ask for and in our case, we are very responsive, I hope, to
the needs of present users.
Q33 Ross Cranston: I think you said that
there were 300,000 enquiries.
Mrs Tyacke: Yes, visitors.
Q34 Ross Cranston: Of those 300,000 visitors,
how many are—to use the colloquial—nutters?
Mrs Tyacke: Very few. Complaints
run at something like 50 a year, which is apparently very good.
Q35 Ross Cranston: They come to us instead
though.
Mrs Tyacke: I answer enquiries
from everybody.
Q36 Mr Cunningham: In relation to good
records management, do you think you started early enough?
Mrs Tyacke: In the case of records
management—taking a long term view—it would be true
to say that it is a perennial issue—records management.
In terms of FOI, I would say that in terms of getting policies
in, this seems to be happening now across the wider public sector.
In some areas there are some very good policies, very good operational
staff and in others perhaps not so good. As I say, in terms of
the central departments, there is a long tradition of departmental
record officers, but they are designed under the old system, if
you like. My view is yes, we did start soon enough, but the proof
will be in the pudding as to whether the questions we anticipate
will be asked.
Q37 Mr Cunningham: At what point was
the public sector provided with model action plans for records
management?
Mrs Tyacke: I think I am right
in saying about two years ago, but Susan will know.
Ms Healy: The code itself was
laid in November 2002 and the model action plans appeared shortly
after in sequence: central government, then local government and
then other parts of the public sector. For each of them, we worked
with representatives of that sector to produce an action plan
which would be suitable for their particular needs.
Q38 Mr Cunningham: What steps do you
take to ensure that these action places are implemented?
Mrs Tyacke: It depends which part
of the wider public sector we are talking about. If it is central
departments then we have systems in place, as we always have done,
to enquire, to inspect and to give supervision, guidance and co-ordination
in this matter. For the wider public sector, we set up the Records
Management Advisory Service in May 2003 because from our own places
of deposit inspections system, which is the 240 places that I
referred to earlier, it became clear that advice would be welcomed
by local authorities in particular and by other public sector
bodies. We are not in a position to operate any form of regulatory
system there but we can give advice, we can suggest as we have
for central Government what are the steps in order to make sure
that you have a decent records management system in place which
will meet the requirements of information legislation, including
FOI.
Q39 Mr Cunningham: Who is responsible
for making any assessments of these models?
Mrs Tyacke: That will be the Information
Commissioner.
1 Note by witness: Secretary of State's Advisory
Group on Implementation of FOI Back
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