Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-207)
INDEPENDENT THEATRE
COUNCIL
1 FEBRUARY 2005
Q200 Michael Fabricant:
Do you think there needs to be an advocacy fund. Just as we are
talking about an advocacy fund to represent smaller countries
in their negotiations with the WTO, do you think the Arts Council
ought to have a sort of advocacy fund to enable small regional
or local production companies to be able to argue effectively
and negotiate effectively with those multimillionaire producers
you have just talked about (not that there is anything wrong with
being multi-millionaires, I hasten to add!)
Ms Jones: One of
the interesting things that came out of the evidence before was
the question of what accountability there might be if there was
to be Lottery funding given to the West End. I think that is quite
interesting because of course they are not used to that and the
concept of setting up a separate trust where the Lottery funding
goes straight in rather than having to comply with all the normal
Lottery tick boxing is an interesting suggestion. I would be amazed
if the subsidised sector could get away with that. I think it
would be very interesting for all the West End to be having to
work to some of the guidelines and constraints that the subsidised
sector works to. That might be a way in which a level playing
field began to be created. The subsidised sector does have to
meet all sorts of criteria about how it reaches the public and
the quality of its work. It all has to be broadly educational
in that it has to meet the needs of the Charities Act whereas
of course it does not in the West End.
Michael Fabricant: Thank
you very much.
Q201 Ms Shipley: Can I
just thank you for your reply to Michael Fabricant's last question
whereby you began to outline the implications of setting up that
independent trust. I think that is something that I for one would
value a written submission on from somebody knowledgeable who
would like to do it. I think it would be most useful. I would
like to challenge you about your submission that money should
be channelled away from buildings and towards performance of the
arts. I come from a background having done a bit of education
in theatre myself and I have got a Masters Degree in architecture
so I am probably a bit biased toward buildings. I would put it
to you that we need both—it is not either/or—and that
we need the innovative space and ideas and those sorts of things
but performing in an actual theatre, building, stage, whatever
it is, is a very different experience for those who are involved
in doing it. We actually have to do both. Would you agree with
that in rough terms?
Ms Jones: I absolutely
agree with it.
Q202 Ms Shipley: In my
own constituency The Glasshouse, which has been mentioned, is
a semi-derelict factory which had an international glass festival
this year which is biennial and which is fantastically successful
in international terms. Next year we will have an international
drama festival on international terms. It will be fantastic but
that is because of the people involved not because of the building
in this instance. The idea I have about inreach into theatre is
to allow people—and yes, you are quite right this is one
for Roger Lang—including young people, Mr Lang, to have
the experience that you are offering and the unusual spaces and
alternative spaces but need, would value, would usefully be enabled
if they got theatre space as well—the actual built environment
space—and I was most disappointed with the West End's complete
lack of imagination about the possibility that this might be developed.
Frankly they were saying no it cannot be done, none of the theatres
can do it. I simply do not agree. Is there any way in a West End
theatre setting that space could be utilised simultaneously at
different times of the day to deliver to young people?
Mr Lang: I tried
to take a children's show into the West End some years ago and
I was largely met with I think the bottom line was "yes,
it is an interesting idea but how are we going to deal with BET2
and how are we going to pay our staff and really it is a lot of
trouble." One person said to me, "We are the most successful
theatre company in the world. Why do we need to do what you want
to do financially?" I did not want to make a lot of money
out of it. I just wanted to bring kids' theatre into the West
End. I accept totally what you are saying. Most theatre for children
and young people in this country—and it is a growth area—is
hidden because it takes place hidden from adults, it takes place
in school time in schools and in community centres and village
halls. I suspect that far more children and young people in the
course of a year see a theatrical production than do adults so
it kind of begs the question why does the lion's share of funding
go to a sea of grey sitting in many of our theatres? Some of that
work is really cutting edge, it is really innovative, it really
has meaning to the audience. Children are not just an audience
of tomorrow; they are an audience of today. So the work taking
place at the Contact Theatre in Manchester is great but I think
we must recognise that. I have worked in the West End but when
you talk to me about the West End I do not connect in the way
that many young people do not connect with it. I think they should,
it would be good.
Q203 Ms Shipley: I am
being quite specific in what I ask you though. They told us that
a traditional theatre cannot be used for anything else apart from
that one nightly performance, that is it, nothing else. I am saying,
no, that is not true. You could open it in the morning, have three
outstanding actors who are very creative sitting on the edge of
the stage and they can entertain an audience and there will be
an audience for it. Am I right or wrong?
Mr Lang: They would
say that their duty is to their investors.
Q204 Ms Shipley: But am
I right or wrong that they would have a paying audience for it?
Mr Lang: Yes, absolutely.
In fact, that happens in Kids' Week. They do Kids' Week in the
West End and it is very successful.
Mr Stride: I think
the question is not a physical one, it is a philosophical one
and, as soon as you describe outreach you are instantly putting
education or marketing or any of those—
Q205 Ms Shipley: I am
describing inreach—seriously—coming into that theatre
space and accessing it.
Mr Stride: I think
we take the view that education, marketing, new writing should
all be central to what a theatre should be about from its very
conception and not seen as added value. That is the debate to
be had as to what extent does all that work centrally. Nick has
done that at the National beautifully and said, "All of this
matters and I cannot separate how much the foyer costs because
it is as important as the work I put on the stage." It is
happening.
Q206 Ms Shipley: I suppose
what I am trying to examine with you experts is to refute the
West End's argument that their theatres cannot do anything else
apart from what they are doing, otherwise they would be doing
it, wouldn't they? What I am saying is they could be doing a lot
of things without jeopardising that evening production. There
are a lot of ways that space, even the most restricted elderly
space, could be utilised. For example, a comedy space which is
very, very tight and very small could present young comedians
in the morning. Why not?
Mr Stride: You
have got to want to do it.
Q207 Ms Shipley: You have
got to want to do it; it is motivation.
Mr Stride: Many
of the regional theatres are doing that. Chichester is a fantastically
welcome environment 24 hours of the day.
Ms Shipley: Exactly, it
is possible, you have to want to do it; that is it. Thank you.
Chairman: And thank you
very much indeed. You have completed what has been a fascinating
morning and early afternoon.
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