Examination of Witnesses (Questions 30-39)
2 FEBRUARY 2004
MS CAROLE
SOUTER, CAPTAIN
RICHARD WOODMAN,
COMMANDER JOHN
PATON AND
MR TIM
PARR
Q30 Chairman: Good morning. I suspect
you have heard some of the criticism, does anyone want to come
back on anything that you have heard from the first witnesses?
Captain Woodman: If I may, Chairman.
I represent the National Historic Ships Committee as its Chairman.
I would like to pick up and really endorse a couple of points
made earlier. We take an overview, we are not partisan of any
particular cause. We would agree that the maritime sector is hugely
neglected and needs a high profile before we lose a great deal
of it. In a sense, in 2005 we have a feeling it is the last chance
saloon. Ships matter because they have made this country what
it is, and I am not just talking about warships, I am talking
about merchant vessels and service vessels. We feel that it is
extremely important that this matter is raised before you. The
National Historic Ships Committee has come in for a certain amount
of opprobrium from some quarters. I would like to correct one
impression made by Rear Admiral Hervey who said that the core
collection had been selected by Dr Prescott. Dr Prescott was commissioned
to devise the method by which we selected a core collection. It
is done on the basis that we look for a number of vessels which
reflect the whole spectrum of maritime achievement in this country,
so we are looking at selected examples of ship types, connections
with famous people, famous events and also the vernacular and
the mundane where it is significant. We have taken a very broad
look at this. This does not fall in with everybody's expectations.
We know perfectly well that you cannot list ships, and we would
advise strongly against it, in the same way as buildings because
they are vastly different, not only are they different in their
method of construction but they are different in their purpose.
We have historic ships which are at sea operating and, therefore,
conform with things like SOLAS 95 and all the regulations that
govern vessels and have to sacrifice bits of their original material
to keep going on that basis. We have also got vessels which are
static in museums in glass cases and we have them, like Victory,
Cutty Sark and Discovery, which are out in the open
air. The horrors of regulation by listing seem to be quite awful
and we do not really want to contemplate that. The core collection
which amounts to 58 vessels was based on the premises that I have
just outlined and it is important to say that the National Historic
Ships Committee in arriving at this figure were mindful constantly
that the resources were going to be limited and that it was not
a bottomless pit and we would have to work on the basis that we
were driven by practicality. The list of designated vessels, which
you are aware of, amounts at the present time to 157. There is
some provision in there for transfer of vessels should some of
the core collection be lost for one reason or another, deterioration
or mismanagement or whatever. There are some good reserve list
within that, as it were.
Q31 Chairman: I am just aware you are
getting into a long statement and we want to ask you lots of questions.
Captain Woodman: I am sorry. Perhaps
I will let it rest there.
Q32 Chairman: Does anyone else want to
pick up anything that was said earlier?
Commander Paton: Could I just
say that historic ships are not just important because of the
past, they are important for the future as well. They are wonderful
vehicles for education, inclusivity, regeneration and all those
sorts of things. Yes, they are memorials to the past but they
are also very, very important vehicles for the future.
Mr Parr: I would like to say that
historic ships in some people's opinion are almost bottomless
pits and the money goes off anywhere. In fact, there are numbers
of people who have benefited from them on particular ships like
the Waverley which has been carrying 150,000 passengers
per year for the last three years ever since she has been refitted,
Balmoral similarly, the steam tug Challenge, in
the last year since she has been refitted has had over 16,000
visitors through the ship. She has done over 2,000 miles in the
last year and has been to Dordrecht, Liverpool, Brest, D-Day and
two boat shows. I think that is extremely good value for money.
People do not realise what value for money we have had in historic
ships from grants from HLF.
Q33 Chairman: On the 58 you have got,
have you done a costing as to how much you need just to keep them
in good nick?
Captain Woodman: No, we have not.
Q34 Chairman: So you have no idea really.
Will you do it or not?
Commander Paton: That is very
much a plan that we want to do as soon as possible.
Q35 Chairman: You have the resource for
that?
Commander Paton: We will not until
we have got the Unit.
Q36 Chairman: Coming later, I am told.
Commander Paton: It will be a
very careful analysis. We also needed a greater status to be able
to go to the 58 and say we would really like this business information
so that we can present a full case.
Q37 Mr Hawkins: I really wanted to follow
upon that. One of the things that we are interested in is the
way the system as it has operated up until now may change once
this new National Historic Ships Unit is established. Particularly
for your committee, how do you foresee now your role is going
to change? What is the interlinking going to be between you and
the new Unit, or is that yet to be determined?
Captain Woodman: It is yet to
be determined. I would very happily hang my hat up if I was a
volunteer and go and tend the garden if I knew it was going to
be properly looked after and the stewardship would be adequately
done. Certainly we have a lot of things we would like the Unit
to do and I imagine probably a percentage of that is going to
be a wish list at the moment. We were very interested in what
you said this morning.
Q38 Chairman: Is there a university anywhere
that concentrates on this area? Is there a professor or anyone
who looks at historical ships? Do we have any research anywhere
in our universities?
Commander Paton: It was Dr Robert
Prescott from St Andrews who led the original project. I think
his department is in the process of closing down, through lack
of funds I suspect.
Captain Woodman: There is an International
Maritime Unit at Cardiff but that is more in terms of studying
current shipping.
Q39 Chairman: We are asking almost out
of ignorance here. Would it be helpful if there was one university
that had this as part of its being?
Commander Paton: Yes, very much
so.
Chairman: Chatham has Greenwich, and
I am not saying that because it is close to me, there are a lot
of places, I am just asking.
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