Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-84)
2 FEBRUARY 2005
Rt Hon Lord McIntosh of Haringey, and Mr Richard
Hartman, examined.
Q80 Mr Hawkins: Historic ships are by
their very nature extremely expensive projects. A feeling that
the witnesses to us so far have been expressing is that too great
a burden is falling on the Heritage Lottery Fund, wonderful work
though they are doing. The volunteers do lots of wonderful work
around the country but they can only raise a relatively small
amount of money and large sums are coming at the moment from the
Heritage Lottery Fund. Is there not an argument for saying that
there should be a greater role for Government, more than just
setting up a Unit, welcome though it is, with only a small budget?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I do
not think there is a particularly good argument for greater overlap
between the National Heritage Fund and English Heritage. They
do different jobs and it is better if they do not trespass in
each other's territories. You are quite right about the Heritage
Lottery Fund, they do a marvellous job and they deal with the
particularly intractable problem for historic ships, which is
not only that you have to spend capital money on bringing them
up to standard, but there is continuous maintenance expenditure
required and the Heritage Lottery Fund I think understands that,
which is why they have given the money to the Cutty Sark Trust.
I do not think there would be any advantage in having more than
one source of official financial support for historic ships.
Q81 Mr Hawkins: In your Department's
written evidence to us you talk particularly about the establishment
of a small grants fund as one of the ideas that most people welcome.
Is this something that you would particularly encourage the new
Unit to look at, because certainly our witnesses so far this morning
have generally welcomed the idea that there can be small grants
to smaller projects to encourage volunteers to act as seed corn
which might bring in business sponsorship and attract other sources
of funding?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I think
that is a very appropriate thing for the new Historic Ships Unit
to look at when it is established and I am sure it is something
that will be taken into account when we look at the appointment
of the Advisory Panel. I find that a very helpful suggestion if
I may say so.
Q82 Chairman: The Tourist Board do not
fund ships anymore. I think they stopped funding it in 1999. It
seems to me that shipping is part of the tourist business. I know
how popular the Cavalier at Chatham is. I am just wondering
if you and Mr Caborn could put your heads together.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My
preference for not overlapping funding between English Heritage
and the Heritage Lottery Fund does not apply to tourist boards.
I think tourist boards should be playing a more active role in
exploiting the tourist potential of historic ships.
Q83 Chairman: One thing that is clear
in everything is that there is always a finite budget. All of
the lotteries have substantial amounts of money in the bank, between
probably £4 billion and £5 billion. Even though that
is allocated across it is still in the bank. Is there anything
to stop the Government going to the City and borrowing against
that £10 or £15 billion so that you would just pay an
interest and you could have a more profound effect on the communities?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: There
is a National Lottery Bill, which has just had its First Reading
in the House of Commons, which actually addresses the issue of
balances in lottery funds. You are right, there are always substantial
balances held by lottery funds and particularly by the Heritage
Lottery Fund. They argue that those balances have been committed
for projects which take place over a considerable period of time
and that they are committed and they are not being withheld, but
I think it is worth saying, without entering into a debate on
the National Lottery Bill in advance of your Second Reading, that
interest is gained on those balances and, secondly, all of the
interest that is gained on those balances goes into the Fund itself
and so nothing is lost. It would be a financial calculation which
I cannot make off-the-cuff as to whether it is better to do as
they do, which is to invest the money and use the income or to
borrow against it in the City.
Q84 Chairman: I just wondered whether
there was any other lottery anywhere in the world that used it
by borrowing from their own major bank.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I do
not know. I would be interested to know and if we can find out
we will let you know.
Chairman: Minister, thank you very much.
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