Examination of Witnesses (Questions 65-79)
8 MARCH 2005
RT HON
ESTELLE MORRIS
MP, MR NIGEL
PITTMAN AND
LORD SAINSBURY
OF TURVILLE
Chairman: Minister, I would like to welcome
you back. We are very glad to see you. Frank Doran will open the
questioning.
Q65 Mr Doran: There are two areas I want
to look at. We are looking at artists and the art market and one
of the things that come up frequently in our inquiries is the
benefit to the economy of the arts generally. We had it come up
in our theatres inquiry recently and it has come up again here.
There does not seem to be any systematic process for producing
an impact study which gives us clear economic guidelines as to
the value. Is that something which either of your two Departments
has been working on?
Estelle Morris: I think it is
a very important point. I think the whole issue about the value
of the creative industries in general is one where measuring this
impact is not always as easy as measuring the impact of some of
the other industries and yet it is important. The art market itself
is important for the trade, for the auction houses and the London
market and the regional market, but I think the skills that artists
have in terms of creativity—and they can contribute to lots
of areas of our life, whether it be art in health, art in schools,
art for social regeneration—is important as well. We did
put a figure in our Department on the value of the creative industries
and art will be subsumed in that. The Arts Council have begun
to try and collect data on the value of art to our community and
I think that is something that has to happen. It is very important
that we get some agreed criteria against which we collect that
data. One of the problems we have in persuading the rest of the
nation and sometimes the rest of Government about the importance
of creative industries including art is a feeling that they are
not real figures, it is not real money, we could do without it;
it is not like nuts and bolts or manufacturing. I think it is
important, it is a growing sector of the economy and so the more
we can do in working with the Arts Council to get a database and
accurate information about the value the better.
Q66 Mr Doran: There is also the problem
at the local level. It seems that another gap is that not every
local authority seems to be aware of just how important arts and
culture are to regeneration, which is a buzzword in itself. Is
any encouragement being given to local authorities to go down
this route and do their own local impact studies?
Estelle Morris: We have been working
very closely with the RDAs and RCCs on this rather than local
authorities. Last year we commissioned the RCCs to collect information
about the state of all the creative industries in their region.
Prior to that there had been no national picture of what was happening
in each of the regions. Different local authorities and RDAs were
collecting data but it was not against a common dataset. We financed
that from within the Department. They have just produced their
report. In fact, I was due to meet them this week and the meeting
got put back, but that is in train. One of the things that surprised
us when we looked at it last year was that there was not in local
authorities or RDAs a common understanding and agreed set of criteria
as to how they would judge the impact in the region and we very
much hope to have that data now because the information has been
collected against a common standard.[56]
Q67 Mr Doran: The second issue I want
to look at is the introduction of droit de suite. We have
seen the consultation document that has been introduced by DTI.
A lot of the debate has been taken up by whether or not we should
have droit de suite, but I think what is more important
now is that the Directive is in place, we are obliged to follow
it and how are we going to implement it and make sure it works
and make sure we do not have an over-bureaucratic system and that
we get the money to artists.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: That
is exactly our position. We have the Directive. We are now going
out to consultation on this. We want to get people's views on
this so that we can get the balance right between the rights of
the artists and making certain it has not too much impact on our
art auctions where we are considered world leaders. We would very
much welcome any views from this Committee to help us frame that
in the statutory instrument when we get there.
Q68 Mr Doran: One of the things we have
picked up is that there is still tension between the galleries
and the art dealers and the representatives of the artists and
the artists about how the system should work. I think the consultation
document gives us a steer in some directions, but there are others
where it is not clear. For example, with the collection process,
is the Government looking at a system which would include collectors
rather than leaving individual artists to do the collecting themselves,
so a laissez faire system as opposed to a structured system?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I
think one of the issues is whether you make the collective system
compulsory. I think we are inclined to go that way because it
quite significantly reduces the administrative costs of this and
that has to be desirable. If you manage the transactions by individual
artists it comes to about £38 for art work; if you have it
done on a collective basis it goes down to about £28. It
is well worth looking at. Our inclination would be to do it on
a collective basis and I suspect artists would prefer that as
well.
Q69 Mr Doran: Would that mean the Government
collecting or would you look to appoint agents?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: No.
We would be appointing a collective agency which already exists.
Q70 Mr Doran: There is still clearly
a debate going on about the impact that this may have on our art
market, which is extremely important to us and I do not think
any of us would want to minimise that. One of the issues that
I have been interested in for a long time is the impact that the
buyer's premium has on the market. I do not know whether this
is something the Government has looked at recently. When I go
to an auction I set a maximum price and I now include in that
the buyer's premium which means that the seller is getting less.
To me that is a disincentive to sell in an auction house. Is this
an area the Government is including in its studies?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: Going
back to your original question about whether or not this will
affect our position on auction houses, it is bound to have some
impact. The extent of that will depend on how the auction houses
respond. If you take the situation of a wealthy Italian collector
who has got a picture which would come in this category, say a
Francis Bacon or a Giacometti, and he wants to sell this, the
costs of transmitting it to Zurich or London or New York are probably
not very significant, so you could put in either of those. You
are then faced with a choice of which is the place you would get
the best price for this, the one difference being that if it was
going to be London and if it is over £2 million you have
got £12,500 extra to pay for this. I think it is bound to
have some impact, but the £12,500 is quite small compared
to the premiums you would pay on a £2 million picture. It
is a particular segment of the market. It is not people who have
been deceased for more than 70 years, it is the heart of the market.
The auction houses have the ability to adjust their premiums for
that range of pictures. There is the question of how they compete
on that. All our major auction houses have offices in both Zurich
or Geneva and New York and so what you might find is that the
picture was sold by a UK auction house in New York or Zurich.
It is quite complicated to see how it would work through, but
there is no doubt it will have some impact.
Q71 Mr Doran: The law on auctions dates
from the 1845 Auctions Act which has not really been updated in
a century and a half. Is that an area which the Government is
looking at given that the art market has changed substantially
and droit de suite is just the latest development in the
arts market? Is it not time it was updated?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: It
is not something that is top of our agenda at the moment, if it
is on the agenda at all. I will certainly have a look at that
and see whether this is something that needs to be looked at.
We have an interest in this and it is mainly in terms of the normal
horizontal issues of consumer protection, competition policy,
intellectual property rights, but it might be a good time to have
a look at the basis of that Act.
Mr Doran: Let me encourage you to do
that. Thank you very much.
Q72 Derek Wyatt: I want to talk a little
bit about Creative Partnerships. We heard some comments before
you came in about the fact that the artists themselves find spaces
in towns and cities and then they become very attractive and their
rents go up and they have to move out in some areas. Is there
anything in the Creative Partnerships that could give space to
artists? In schools which are going to go to 18 hours if not 24
hours instead of just the GP surgery and the maternity unit and
all these things that are being added to these schools so that
they become a community centre there might be a place for artists
as well who could live on-site as well as have gallery space.
Estelle Morris: I do not see why
not. I think that would be very innovative and it is exactly the
sort of thing that could happen. The way that Creative Partnerships
might enable that to happen is that it is building a quality of
relationship between the school and the artist that was never
there before and it is there over time. I would be delighted if
as part of extended schools space was made for artists. The one
place I have seen that happening in the planning is in Folkstone
where a couple of City Academies are doing major regeneration
and they have bought up all the old shops to make artists' space,
and you can see there that the schools concentrating on art and
the towns with lots of space for artists are almost blurring into
one.[57]
I think space for artists is one of the biggest issues facing
us today. They go from having lots of space when they are students
at art colleges to having no space the day that they leave. I
think there is an obligation to make sure that they have space
to continue their work. I know the Arts Council have invested
quite a lot of money in this. I think it would be entirely proper
for us to claim a place for some artists' space in extended schools.
I think it would fit all of the agenda in terms of improving the
curriculum and also out-of-school activities as well.
Q73 Derek Wyatt: I will take you up on
that. On the re-sale, which has been one of our issues, your definition
of art goes back to the Patents Act of 1988. How would you define
what art is?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I
think it is given in the Directive. I think they are pretty broad.
We need to be very clear when we get to the statutory instrument
what exactly is covered by this because it goes well outside the
visual arts; it goes into jewellery, furniture, all sorts of things.
I think we need to look very carefully at how we define that.
I think there is an issue here where it is well worth looking
at what is happening in other countries that already have droit
de suite and learn lessons from that so that we do not get
it too broad and it becomes unmanageable.
Q74 Derek Wyatt: I was at the Museum
of Modern Art in New York the other day and I was amazed at how
much video and film there is in contemporary art in that gallery,
more than anywhere else in the world and this is a whole new area
I had not got my mind round. You would not deny that, would you?
Can you define the art in the statutory instrument or does it
require an amendment to the original Act?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I
think for the purpose of these regulations work of art includes
any artistic work within the meaning of section 4 other than a
work of architecture or work which is computer generated. I think
the categories you are referring to would claim to be works of
art.
Q75 Derek Wyatt: Can the statutory instrument
define that or do you need an amendment to the original Act?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I
would need to look at that. We will have a look at that particular
point.
Chairman: The question is whether the
original Act has got a definitional clause in it.
Q76 Alan Keen: In the evidence we have
received there has not been great enthusiasm for droit de suite.
What room for manoeuvre have we if we do not want to introduce
it here? Have we any room for manoeuvre?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: No,
we have no ability not to introduce it. There are questions of
a balance here between the rights of the artist and the rights
of getting the payments. There are a couple of areas where you
can set the boundaries differently. There is the question of whether
works of art which are under 3,000 euros are included. We are
inclined not to do that because we think at that point the administrative
costs become an absurdly high proportion of the actual payments
which will go to artists. There is a choice of timing but there
is not a choice of bringing it in.
Q77 Alan Keen: What I read tells me that
there is absolutely no chance of the States or Switzerland adopting
it and so that other solution does not exist, is that right?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I
think they said that they have no intention of changing and I
would have been very surprised if they had stepped forward to
do that.
Q78 Alan Keen: I think too many of us
spend too many hours sitting in front of the television when we
could be painting or drawing. What are you doing to make sure
that the 60 million people who were artists in nursery school
do not forget all about it as they get older and forget what a
wonderful past time it is? What are you doing to let people understand
what they are missing?
Estelle Morris: I think we are
probably working at it from two angles. Since free entry to art
galleries and museums the number of people going to art galleries
and seeing exceptionally good works of art has increased massively,
so I think that in itself rekindles interest that might have been
lost and makes the whole subject one which more people talk about
and so it becomes a more integral part of our life. I think more
has to be done in schools and we have tried to do a lot in recent
years on that. You are right, your children did not go to school
knowing how to read and write, but they did go to school and learn
how to draw pictures and sometimes by the age of 18 they left
feeling they did not have to draw pictures any longer whereas
they could read and write. The DCMS introduced Artsmark as an
opportunity for a school to show its prowess in art. Art and creative
subjects do not get a very high billing in the performance tables
that are published. Artsmark was designed to make sure that schools
could have recognition for the art work that they do. I am very
optimistic about the role that the over 300 specialist arts colleges
will play. What I would really like to see happening is ideally,
if you have got an arts college in every community, that becoming
a focal point for art in the community and they are honour bound
as a specialist college to make their facilities open to the wider
community as well. What we have seen a loss of over the years
is what might have been considered the old fashioned further education
classes where adults went during the daytime if they were not
at work or in the evening for arts. I think they have tended to
get squeezed out a bit in the pursuit for literacy and numeracy
and skills which help productivity in the workplace. I have got
no complaints about that, but it should not be either or, it should
be both. I hope in future years the specialist arts colleges will
be seen as the place in the community where people other than
young children can go to carry on with their artwork. I think
there is a range of initiatives around. There is the gifted and
talented work which has been introduced by the Department of Education
and that includes those children who are gifted and talented in
arts and the arts award for young people that has been piloted
and will be rolled out nationally. We are trying to change the
culture in schools so that it is not something which vanishes
by the time the children get to secondary age, and then what you
have got to do is to make sure that there is progression. Universities
that specialise in the arts and our arts colleges have got work
to do there so that there is a seamless transition through from
school to college and beyond and then back to school to do the
arts classes in the specialist arts colleges.
Q79 Alan Keen: There are lots of facilities
in the private sector within local areas where they are not being
used fully. I asked a question in relation to theatres last time
of the person from Wales who mentioned that the Welsh Assembly
is encouraging local authorities to form arts forums and that
is really to bring people together in an area to help get the
best out of the facilities and the knowledge and the enthusiasm
that is there. Have you looked at this scheme at all?
Estelle Morris: We ought to be
offering something and I would be happy to do that. I would see
cultural consortiums as taking the lead role within that for doing
an analysis of what the cultural needs were in an area. I take
your point. I think more can be done and if there is a good example
somewhere else I am more than happy to look at it. I think the
whole of that relationship, which we did touch on the last time
I was here about the role of that creative cultural sector higher
up the agenda, is one where we still need to see lots more progress.
I think the work that has been done in Renaissance in the Regions,
which I know is particularly in museums, and which throws open
the whole galleries and the museums sector to decision-making
at a local level is one that would be helpful, but I would not
claim for a minute that out there in every local authority there
is an eagerness and a speed of action in making sure that this
sort of activity is higher up the civic agenda. Equally, as I
said to Mr Doran about the RDAs, we ought to look beyond local
authorities and at the regional agenda in this because I think
that could be quite an important driver given the economic impact
of the sector.
56 The Culture at the Heart of Regeneration
consultation of last summer argued that culture is a key driver
in the sustainable regeneration of communities. The document gave
a picture of work undertaken in the culture and regeneration area
from the local to the national level. It aimed to build on the
evidence base, which needs to be strengthened, possibly through
the adoption of a shared evidence gathering and analysis framework.
This will be taken forward by a Development Forum during the spring
of this year. The Forum will also draw together the diverse work
currently being undertaken in the culture and regeneration agenda,
including that of RDAs. Back
57
The Minister meant to say-The one place I have seen that happending
in the planning is in Folkestone, where Roger De Hann, who is
sponsoring Folkestone Academy is doing major regeneration and
has been buying up all the old shops to make artists' space, and
you can see there that the schools concentrating on art and the
towns with lots of space for artists are almost blurring into
one. Back
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