Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-91)
8 MARCH 2005
RT HON
ESTELLE MORRIS
MP, MR NIGEL
PITTMAN AND
LORD SAINSBURY
OF TURVILLE
Q80 Alan Keen: Take the local authority
of Hounslow, it is easy to see there are two theatres and there
is a gallery attached it, the Watermans Arts Centre. There is
the Wand Street Cinema as well and that is a great place. Also—and
this is not my constituency, it is the posh end and that is not
part of my constituency when it comes to election times—at
Chiswick you have got a cafe« society there. Chiswick High
Road is filled with cafe«s; new ones are opening and old
ones are closing and what a wonderful venue they are for art.
If we have someone locally who is going and encouraging these
sorts of links, it can only be good, can it not?
Estelle Morris: Sometimes it can
be something as simple as the display of local artists' work in
those places. I think local authorities probably can do more to
display local work in civic buildings over which they have responsibility
for, quite honestly, not a lot of extra cost. One more thing:
what you are talking about is changing the culture so that our
urban areas and rural areas as well have at their centre an appreciation
of culture and an availability of art to everybody who lives there.
We have talked about—and you are well aware of this so apologies
really—the whole regeneration on the back of art and culture
that is taking place in most of the old Victorian cities now.
If you go to the centre of my constituency in Birmingham or in
Manchester or in Leeds or in Liverpool there is very, very little
regeneration being done there or there are very few buildings
being built where there is not art on display. Last week I went
to see the new Home Office. I think that is the first government
building that has been built in central London for a long time,
and that has had artists working with the architects when the
building was designed and built not as a bolt on extra but almost
accepting that you do not build a building unless you look at
what art can contribute. We are further along the road than we
were but I do not think we have changed the culture yet. I do
not think we have got that cafe« society—and I use
that as a short form for appreciating art as well—throughout
all of the areas where people live, but I think we are better
than we were a decade ago.
Q81 Chris Bryant: Just on the resale
rights briefly, Lord Sainsbury. Sub-section 17 of the preamble
to the Directive allows Member States that do not already have
any system of re-sale rights to delay for some period the implementation
for deceased artists. You make no reference to that in the consultation
document but I wonder whether that might not meet the problem
that some of the art houses have been referring to in terms of
diversion away to other countries?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: We
secured a derogation on that so that it does not apply to the
works of deceased artists until 2010. That may be extended to
2012 if the UK can make a case that they require more time. So
I think we will do it until 2010 and then obviously we will have
to look at it again as to whether at that point we could make
a case for requiring more time.
Q82 Chris Bryant: That seems a pretty
sensible way forward because then works of art that were selling
for £2 million by Giacometti or Francis Bacon might still
remain in this country notwithstanding that.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: It
would delay the process and in that sense give the auction houses
more time to deal with the problem, but of course you still eventually
get the same issue. I think we do need to make certain that the
auction houses do have time to adjust to this particular problem.
Q83 Chris Bryant: A completely different
issue, the Goodison Review. As you will know, there are several
much-loved paintings in art galleries in the UK which belong to
owners who might at some point choose to sell them or whose estates
might choose to sell them. There is a sort of "at risk"
register of paintings. I wonder whether you are hopeful that the
Budget will make any announcements on fiscal changes?
Estelle Morris: I always remain
hopeful about what the Budget might do, ever since 1992.
Q84 Chris Bryant: But have you made a
case to the Treasury?
Estelle Morris: We have made a
case. The Goodison recommendations clearly fell into two parts.
One was the responsibility of the DCMS and the other was directly
the responsibility of the Treasury. We have delivered all the
targets from the DCMS and the rest is for the Treasury.
Q85 Chris Bryant: It is now incumbent
upon the Treasury to meet the DCMS's delivery targets?
Estelle Morris: I suppose you
saying that might assist the DCMS!
Q86 Chairman: Hence the saying "that
will be the day"!
Estelle Morris: I think we live
in hope rather than expectation.
Q87 Chris Bryant: Oh dear! That sounded
like a counsel of despair. Let me try another issue. We have heard
earlier today that the art market is one of the last completely
unregulated markets in the UK and we know that got the auction
houses into some difficult problems some 10 or 15 years ago, as
we all know, but some artists have been saying to us that there
are real problems about the established relationship between artists
and dealers and whilst I suspect that most of us on the Committee
will be hesitant about bringing in any government legislation
to regulate in the area, I wonder whether the model that the DTI
has been using to try and enable without legislation employment
rights for clergy where they have brought all the groups together
and have negotiated a code of practice might not be quite a good
way for DCMS to proceed or DTI, whichever, to try and bring about
a better sense of fair play between artists and dealers and auction
houses?
Estelle Morris: This is an interesting
area. I have given it more thought since your Committee announcement
than I had previously.
Q88 Chris Bryant: When you did not any
strong views.
Estelle Morris: We welcome what
your Committee might say on this. I would not want to go into
regulating the market; I do not think that is right. Just for
the record, the Government has no intention of starting to regulate
the market. I do not think that would be helpful. I am conscious,
however, that it is a particularly difficult market to get into
if you are a young or not so young person leaving university with
some skill. Because we meet artists we are aware of some of the
difficulties. I notice that the Arts Council evidence talked a
lot about managing that interface between artists and the sector.
I am wondering if that is a way to go forward so that young artists
are given guidance on what they ought to charge. I notice that
is part of the Arts Council England evidence to you. I would sooner
take that approach than I would a regulated approached but a lot
of people in preparation for this hearing have talked about a
code of practice. It depends on what a code of practice means.
If after hearing the evidence that you have taken today it was
thought that we ought to look at it in the DCMS, we are more than
happy to reflect on the Committee's recommendations. It was not
something that we intended to do.
Q89 Chris Bryant: Maybe a code sounds
too regulatory.
Estelle Morris: Too regulatory,
yes.
Q90 Chris Bryant: But movement towards
best practice. For instance, some of us found it incomprehensible
that there is not an expectation that an artist would have a contract
with the dealer, and if there was a suggestion of good practice
then that might make it easier for individual artists not to fall
out with their dealers.
Estelle Morris: I do not think
there can be anything wrong with looking at good practice and
making it available to people. I think there is another approach
in this as well and that is giving artists the skills they need
to negotiate entry into the market and survival in the market.
It is something we have spent a lot of time on over the last 12
months and all the evidence shows that no matter what art colleges
do to try and teach this and make this available to students at
the arts colleges, they do not want it, they want it at the point
at which they need it. Over the last 12 months there have been
quite a few initiatives of continuing support for young artists
after they have left art college or university to give them the
business skills and the wherewithal to manage to cope with entry
to the market. I do not think there is anything wrong in a good
practice guide but I think essentially you have got to make sure
that young artists have the knowledge to know what their rights
are and to know what they may argue for and to know where to go
for good advice at the point at which they need it.
Q91 Chairman: When we were in Paris last
week I asked the relevant officials of the Ministry of Culture
there whether there was not a danger that the implementation of
this Directive might lead to driving elements in the art market
underground with cash payments rather than registered payments,
throwing doubts on provenance, and accompanying the possibility
which already existed, as we have discovered in this Committee,
with regard to the art market and the art market being used even
more for laundering other transactions, including drug transactions.
Have you thought about that and have you got a view on that?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: It
is important to realise that the Directive only applies to sales
which take place through professionals in this market. In that
context I think it has to be another factor which would tend to
push people towards selling without going through the professional
art market because by the time you have added on premiums, doit
de suite, and so on you are making it increasingly expensive
to go through the professional art market, so I think it would
have to have the impact of having more things going through personal
sales between individuals. There may be other problems of money
laundering and drugs and whatnot, but I do not think this would
have any impact on this. It might lead to more sales through individuals
selling to one another with those issues of authenticity and so
on which would arise from that.
Chairman: Thank you very much. We have
had a very meaty session this morning and I find it interesting,
if sad, that when some of the greatest experts in the field have
assembled to discuss the future of the most important art market
in the whole of Europe, not a single journalist, even from the
posh papers, has bothered to turn up. Oh, there is one journalist
from a posh paper. You should have sat on the journalists' bench
and then I would have been able to identify you, but thank you
for making your presence known.
| 
