Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 86)
TUESDAY 30 NOVEMBER 2004
DR BOB
MCKEE,
MS MARGARET
HAINES AND
MS CATHERINE
BLANSHARD
Q80 Ms Shipley: Those are 2003, so
it is only one year out of date.
Dr McKee: It comes back to the
point that was made earlier about the lack of consistent quality
across the library service.
Q81 Ms Shipley: Clearly, that is
what the 50% says, but I am asking you why?
Dr McKee: Because of variable
investment, variable championship from political interests at
local level, because of variable local social, cultural and economic
conditions. To change that what is needed is a national policy,
which we are close to, a national regulatory regime, which we
are close to but could get better, and a partnership between national
and local government so that there are national offers delivered
locally, which we are trying to get to, with the Framework
for the Future action plans supported by appropriate capital
and revenue investment, which we need.
Q82 Ms Shipley: So that is all the
things that other people can do, all of which I agree with you,
but the other half is to do with the quality of people who are
staffing the libraries, some of whom are excellent and some of
whom are not. It does not seem to matter whether they are paid
or not, frankly, some of them are not very good. A local library
that I use—not in my constituency, I hasten to add before
any journalist writes it up—recently was given money and
was cleaned up. As far as I can see, it only had new carpet in
terms of being done up capitally, but the big difference was that
there seemed to be a change of staff when it reopened its door;
and the difference now is you are welcomed when you go in, there
is more happening and there is more enthusiasm. Goodness knows
what they did with the other staff, but I am really glad they
went because they were not very nice; they did not know what they
were doing; they did not know what was going on. If you said,
"What is happening in so and so library?" they did not
know. They we were sat there like puddings. That is not an isolated
case in the libraries. Other libraries you go into and the same
person sitting in the same position doing the same job in a similarly
under resourced place with a poor council not doing a very good
job, but if you have got an enthusiastic person there they can
turn around what little resources they have and make it welcoming
and enthusiastic. What are you doing about getting rid of those
people who should not be there?
Dr McKee: I would not want to
talk about getting rid of people; it is about workforce development;
it is about changing people's skills, people's attitude, people's
cultures, people's behaviour.
Q83 Ms Shipley: That is all very
nice, but what if they are not up to that? What if they should
not be there; they are not people who should be interfacing with
the public? They might have a degree in librarianship but they
should not be interfacing with the public?
Ms Blanshard: I think the issue
is the same when you go into any shop, any service, if you are
not given the service that you want it is the same feeling. If
you go into a bad service it is a bad service. Libraries are no
different from anything else. We have lots of good people. I think
it is down to the management to have a very clear vision. One
of the things about the Audit Commission issue which I think is
very strong is the interpretation, it is so hard trying to measure
a service if it has not got a very strong performance framework,
if it is not looking at performance right across the board, if
it is not self-assessing. So the Audit Commission coming in in
the old days with an inspection is not a surprise. Good services
know exactly where they are; they are not just using output measures;
they are identifying impact measures; they are self-assessing;
they are mystery shopping. If you have all those elements then
you see the sulky person on the counter, the misfit, the inappropriate
member of staff and you deal with it. You deal with it through
training, you deal with it with personal support; you sit down,
you work through all the processes, but, if push comes to shove,
then you take action, and that is the important thing.
Q84 Ms Shipley: So how can we get
that standard across the country, in one sentence or two sentences,
because where it is excellent it is fantastic and I am applauding
it all the way, but other 50% where it is not, how do we get that
standard?
Dr McKee: What motivates people?
A sense of direction, leadership, good support, and it is those
things.
Ms Haines: In the Tavistock Institute
evaluation the People's Network said that the ICT skills that
were delivered through the training programme did boost the staff's
confidence and in many ways gave them much more incentive, boosted
their spirits, changed their attitudes around. The staff then
said, "But we need more skills and more training." One
of the things that came out of that evaluation was the need for
changed management skills in the public library sector more than
there are. There are some excellent leaders in the public library
service, but overall management, perhaps more changed management
training. So I think it is about leadership and encouraging the
leaders to grow and develop in that sector, but also it is about
offering them the training and support from professional bodies
like CILIP.
Ms Blanshard: I would add that
it is actually about listening to the community and starting where
the community are, showing that you are listening to the community,
that you are delivering a service that they want, that you can
measure that service, that you understand the impact and can measure
that impact, that you are assessing it, you are happy to have
outside people coming to in to look at it and you are working
with them to learn and grow and you are working with local people
to learn and grow.
Q85 Ms Shipley: I do not agree with
what you are saying, because you can put in some extra training
and that is good, that is fine, but you can train and train and
train, take people out of the work place, train them, send them
off for more training. They just love it, they just know they
are going to have a wonderful time, they know they are just fantastic
and sign up for the next one; but, no, they are actually in their
workplace working and getting on with the job, and if they are
not good enough and they are responding to the community, then
they have got to go, which I think is what you said; and I would
go with that rather than more and more training, because presumably
these people are trained librarians in position to start off with,
so they might have a little bit of a boost now again—absolutely—wonderful—but
continually training them, taking them out of the workplace, training
them up a bit more, back in, out again—and I have seen it
happening—no, sometimes you have to liaise with what the
community wants and find out why they are not delivering it. Mainly
the community wants somebody who is knowledgeable, and librarians
are, just by definition they are knowledgeable, and then they
have got to be able to communicate that knowledge?
Ms Haines: I disagree that you
have to take them out of the work place to encourage learning
and professional development, but also it comes back to leadership,
because if there are, as Catherine says, very strong messages
from the top about customer care being at the heart of the service
and people being expected to deliver that, then if they cannot
deliver it because of lack of skills and inter-personal skills,
or whatever, they get the support they need to develop the skills,
or if they have the skills and just chose not to use them or are
incapable of good customer care, then they do have to go into
another role or out of the service.
Ms Blanshard: Everybody deserves
a chance.
Q86 Chairman: I am sorry, but we
are going to have to move on; we are running quite late. Thank
you very much indeed.
Dr McKee: Thank you very much
indeed.
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