Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 119)
TUESDAY 30 NOVEMBER 2004
AUDIT COMMISSION
Q100 Mr Flook: In the way that the
Lottery has changed in that we now look at social need and deprivation
as one aspect, my poorest community has the poorest libraries,
which seems rather mad. Is there not a first stage that we ought
to audit and say in the poorest communities they should have the
best libraries?
Mr Curtis: Again it is a question
of what do you mean by the best libraries.
Mr Flook: Hours of opening, the quality
of the books, access to Internet, which is very poor—
Ms Shipley:—Good staff.
Q101 Mr Flook: Minimum requirements.
Why should not the poorest areas have at least equal to the best
town libraries?
Mr Curtis: You are probably arguing
for better performance information there. The sort of criteria
that you have put forward need to be turned into data and intelligence
and wisdom so that you can then address the particular issue because
unless you surface that information then you do not get the focus
of attention subsequently.
Q102 Mr Flook: There is no way there
can be a corner of the street library that is only open three
hours a day and not at weekends in our poorest communities.
Mr Curtis: In fairness, we have
said in our evidence that the public library standard which raises
the issue about opening hours has had an impact on increasing
opening hours so that suggests that if you shine a light on something
because it is important then that gets attention, but if you do
not shine a light on it it will not get attention and will continue
to be ignored.
Q103 Ms Shipley: Can I give you the
opportunity to shine a light then on the funding variances across
the country. Tell me who is top and bottom? Who spends the most
and who spends the least because I bet you do know that?
Helen Dean: Not off the top of
my head.
Q104 Ms Shipley: Go on, I do not
believe you. I bet you do know who the big spenders are.
Helen Dean: We would have to come
back to you in terms of spend per head.
Mr Curtis: Certainly there is
a huge variation. If you look again at Building Better Libraries—
Q105 Ms Shipley: I know that there
is a huge variation. You have said that. I want to know who. Name
names.
Mr Curtis: We could probably give
you that information but we have not got it off the top of our
heads today.
Q106 Ms Shipley: Just name me some
who are particularly bad and some who are particularly good.
Mr Curtis: I think we have identified
in our evidence library services where they are good.
Q107 Ms Shipley: Tell me.
Mr Curtis: Shropshire.
Q108 Ms Shipley: Good or bad?
Mr Curtis: An excellent local
authority.
Q109 Ms Shipley: A bad one?
Mr Curtis: Recently?
Ms Dean: York came out as a "fair"
service. We are about to go back into Rochdale which was originally
a "poor" service with uncertain prospects.
Q110 Ms Shipley: This is on spending?
Ms Dean: This is about quality
of service.
Q111 Ms Shipley: I want to know who
is spending and who is not.
Mr Curtis: One of the things we
say in our submission is that there is an incredible amount of
data around library services and what we have not done and what
the sector does not do is translate that data into wisdom. If
spending levels is what you want—
Q112 Ms Shipley:—Yes, I do.
Mr Curtis:—Then that information
is available in statistics and we can ensure it gets to you.
Q113 Ms Shipley: I will have the
top three and the bottom three spends, please.
Mr Curtis: We will give that to
you.
Q114 Ms Shipley: That will be very
helpful, thank you. The other thing that you said that really
concerned me was to do with school libraries and involved money.
When I was elected in 1997 quite a few schools in my constituency
had no libraries, which was absolutely appalling, and I was very
pleased over the two years that followed that I found myself opening
libraries in the schools, which was excellent, particularly in
the poorer areas. These were books that the kids could get and
I was really, really pleased that the Government had put money
in specifically for that. I am incredibly worried that you are
telling me that some of that devolved money is not being used
properly because simultaneously I am against vending machines
in schools and I am being told that it goes to help pay for books
and things that they have not got, but you say that the money
is there but it is not being devolved properly. I would like to
know if you know which authorities are not devolving the money
properly.
Ms Dean: Can I make a point of
clarification before trying to answer that.
Q115 Ms Shipley: Please do.
Ms Dean: I think there is a slight
difference between schools having their own libraries for children
to use as part of the school building. What we are talking about
in terms of devolved and delegated funding is funding to be able
to buy in professional expertise from the public library service
or another mechanism, together with additional selections of books
for specific topics. So, for example, the Tudors comes up every
autumn—
Q116 Ms Shipley: The clarification
is helpful but the question stands; who are not doing it?
Mr Curtis: By looking at the Section
52 statements which set out which local authorities are devolving
money you will find lots of gaps there. Some local authorities
are devolving money and reporting it as such and other authorities
appear not to be devolving the money or not reporting it. As a
result of our inquiry last week what I intend to do is to look
at that and see whether or not that is a matter of reporting or
whether it is a matter of policy.
Q117 Ms Shipley: That is very interesting
and I see a question to the Minister coming upon me. Civil servants
have a habit of writing back almost these exact words: "We
do not currently collect that information". Can you put on
record they could access that information if they wanted to? Is
that possible?
Mr Curtis: The information sits
at the moment within Section 52 statements, yes.
Q118 Ms Shipley: So it is possible.
They cannot write back to me and say they cannot get the information;
it is there?
Mr Curtis: The information is
there. It is a matter of whether or not that is appropriately
reported. If you are looking for a yes or no: yes.
Ms Shipley: Great, thank you very much.
Chairman: Frank Doran?
Q119 Mr Doran: Your evidence has
been very helpful to me. I am not an expert on libraries and your
external views have been extremely useful. I am building up a
picture of a very patchy service and your submission makes that
clear and the evidence you have given today underlines that. Certainly
it is a service that needs advocates at a local level. Some places
have this, some do not. There are obviously external pressures.
One is by customers and often their pressure is by staying away
rather than doing anything constructive. Then obviously there
is the Audit Commission examination. You have done 86 authorities
so you have got a few to go.
Mr Curtis: We are not intending
to go round and beat the bounds of the whole country and inspect
all library services. The Audit Commission's approach to inspection—and
you will know this—is to move to an inspection model where
we will inspect where there is greatest need. It is the mantra
of the Commission to have "strategic regulation". Therefore
we are not intending to go round and test every library service.
What we are advocating is a better process of gathering performance
information of library services, which will both inform the local
community about performance, will inform the Library Service about
how well the Library Service is doing, and will inform us as a
regulator and you nationally to determine where we should inspect,
or indeed other agencies where they might offer most support to
library services.
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